You be the dev: XP for Kill Formulae omgthissucks

[Lokey]

Delisha Zrazorian: Make hogres exclusively if you want challenge NS is way less grindy than bio default for parties anyway--party of 4 would get much less for killing an equivalent cr for example (larger parties still less, and that'd include party npcs as well).

frog: Input is input, needn't be mathematical, that's just how the game does what we want it to do. The question is do our assumptions make sense and improve matters?

Rufio, Midterm: Read the big and bolded sentence in the OP. Illithid as is provides a point, it can be rough and the drops are really nice.

Midterm 2: That's not too bad to program. Would need to know more of what Dofus is like.

Bargeld: Prefer time estimates in how long actually playing Solo, there's plenty of sweet spots where you can level every half hour in my experience til mid-20s (varies a lot of course). But, you know, that's my experience

Meh, seeing some sticking points I need to think about some more to express coherently. There's no huge hurry.

[Ajantis.]

Well, lets continue to use Duskhaven for an example.

That's not really a multi-map area like Giant Mountain is. I would compare it similarly to Gnolls, without the good XP. People respawn that map as well, and its not really a big deal, much like Efreets.

The river wouldn't flow elsewhere, it would just be spread out into more tributaries.

[Bargeld]

The problem with counting in 'game hours' is that it doesn't convey the bigger picture. Sure you might be able to get a lvl from 35-40 in say 12 game hours, but getting 12 game hours on a lvl 39 is much more difficult that doing it on a lvl 5. You can solo a level 5 and earn xp quickly (usually). I've soloed, almost exclusively, 2 toons to lvl 40... at least I had the mindset that I would solo if no one else was on. Whereas with most of my toons once you hit 35+, if you have no group, you play a different toon; or a different game altogether. Soloing Gem (assassin) at gobos was pretty easy, I admit. Soloing an SD wiz wailer with dc 47 in forest home was a bit more challenging and slow, but bearable. But that was a LOT of hours to solo those last 5 levels. I don't even know how I would estimate it.

[mining]

Rufio, Midterm: Read the big and bolded sentence in the OP. Illithid as is provides a point, it can be rough and the drops are really nice compared to level 30 gear.

I fixed that for you.

For reference, here's why I'm liking this curve better than the current one we use.
Pretend you have a level 1 headed to 40. We drop in on him at, say, 5 levels: 1, 11, 23, 35, 38.

At level 1, he needs to kill ~30 CR 1 mobs to get his level 2, under both XP systems. Thats great, we like that. We want people to be getting levels fairly quickly at one.

At level 11, under the old XP system, you'd need to kill 120 mobs to get level 12. Wait, wtf? Four times as many mobs? Under the proposed new system it would only take 40 CR appropriate mobs - which is much nicer, and much more gradual increase in mobs needed to be killed - to my way of thinking anyway.

At 23 he's probably cheesing up Skara for CR 27 XP, but lets pretend he's still going for CR appropriate mobs. He would have to kill 54 under the new system vs 140 of the old system. Now, it might be that CR 23 mobs are baselined at Skara standard instead of... efreets? No, more likely ice giants are 23 at the moment, hrmm, are those hard enough? /endtangent.

So, we drop in on him at 35. At this stage, under old XP system he'd need to kill something like 150 mobs, whereas under the new system that figure would be more like 73. At the moment, CR 35 is goblins (or thereabouts). Thats dumb, CR 35 should be tending more towards things that are actually, I don't know, not insta-kill, darkness prone, "I don't do damage" mobs.

We now drop in on our brave hero at level 38. He's oh so close to 40, and he's wanting to go after CR appropriate encounters. He's scouring the planes, but can't find anything! One day he comes to a portal, and goes through, finding a sole archangel (I don't know, really awesome spawn?) He injests more potions than Carejo carries around with him, and finally kills the thing, only to need to kill 150 more of them in order to get to 39. That is his CR appropriate encounter. In contrast, with a CR/curve rework, you might go to Illithids, or DWP, or DE, or possibly even negi and posi and kill about 80 mobs for your level. The idea will be to make areas more CR appropriate so you don't need to grind for days, and days, and days on goblins.

Some [mostly right] quotes from opinions I've gathered the last few days:

But why can't I get 1 XP from killing beetles?

I've been in air plane from 22, and I'm 32 now.

lol goblins

How many HP does this dorf have again?

No, seriously, I want to grind to 40 in the sewers.

I level drow in goblins from 21-whenever I like.

GOD DAMNIT I WANT TO GRIND ON RATS!

[Midterm]

Asides from CR being the luring point of bring people to one area to another, has anyone considered drops, via epic items, books, or even uniques, as another factor?

I would farm rats and beetles if it was known that no body had farmed them in 2 years and the chances of dropping a book approached 100%.

[mining]

Asides from CR being the luring point of bring people to one area to another, has anyone considered drops, via epic items, books, or even uniques, as another factor?

I would farm rats and beetles if it was known that no body had farmed them in 2 years and the chances of dropping a book approached 100%.

Hrmm, Illithids, NS city, easy 100% drop grounds, lol.

[Midterm]

Raiding LA for books!

the DMz would be pleased

[mining]

Better quality, more XP for level<5 going out and killing something big, no minimum XP.

[Rufio]

Ok, I like this. when I made my first post I only skimmed lokeys graphs, I thought he was just showing how exp works at the moment rather than proposing a new system.

I like that you really do have to go out past dwarves for exp. I like mining's version better to help the newer players who may not have the experience to know what is needed to survive the high level areas, or even help the builds that are not quite optimized for pvm when they can't get a party going. It should speed up leveling quite a bit. I'm excited about it myself, maybe I can beef up my stable of toons for once and use that surplus of endgame gear.

[Daral0085]

At the moment, CR 35 is goblins (or thereabouts). Thats dumb, CR 35 should be tending more towards things that are actually, I don't know, not insta-kill, darkness prone, "I don't do damage" mobs.

Not exactly. Goblin shamen are CR 35, but warriors are 32. For comparison, elite dwarf warriors are 34 I think? And then you can get into DE where the baseline really is around 35, and you have to deal with stuff like khameleons, those uber-druids (forget the name), etc. TBH I think you're right that goblins either need a CR decrease or bit of a buff, but remember that goblins have cripple and are moderately strong hipsers so while it's true they can be farmed, this is only true for builds that are designed to fight hipsers. So it's not exactly an XP free-for-all.

But why can't I get 1 XP from killing beetles?

Yeah, I think it shows the XP system is a bit broken when I have level 35+ toons that I would actually get to 40 faster by killing 1 xp beetles than anywhere else on the server. Except for maybe 10 XP planar nexus mobs. Fighting anything CR 30+ is simply impractical when solo, and even with parties the XP goes pretty slow when you have an ECL.

I haven't had time to scan through the graphs and stuff, but I have to say in my own experience that levels 35-38 are a character graveyard. I have so many toons in that range simply because I don't have the time or patience to finish them. I guess it's nice to know that this was not intentional from the devs; it has been like this for so long I always thought it was "by design".

Honestly, I don't think the biggest problem is that giant mtn or efreets or skara are so high CR that people only go there, it's that going anywhere else makes the leveling experience horrible. I mean, I already have to grind my toons past 34, why in the name of anything holy would I voluntarily enter a horrible level grind in the earlier levels when I have any other choice?

I appreciate the opinion of those who like to fight monsters regardless of what XP they give, but for me personally I like to build toons with specific goals in mind for what I want them to achieve. For instance, if I am building a ranger/AA, you only get outdoor hips at ranger 21 so until that happens, you aren't even playing the entire toon because having outdoor hips completely changes the playstyle. If I could wander Aetheria, killing random stuff and get even just moderately good XP, I would be OK with that, but it just isn't possible once you get past level 3 or so. There are so many regions I could name where you would literally have to play for hours to gain a single level (old wyrm road, redhorn *, various forests, angmar plains/desert, etc). And then the higher CR areas are only worth visiting with an underlevel toon getting cleric buffs from town.

You very quickly reach a point where it just doesn't pay to fight equal CR mobs. As mining (and others) correctly pointed out, at high levels *there are no more higher-CR mobs*. That's why 35+ is such a grind, it has everything to do with "there are barely any CR 38 mobs in the server", and the ones that do exist really are boss fights in themselves.

... I would keep going, but I think we all know these problems. IMO, if it is reasonable to level in non-xp-river places, I think people will go there. Heck, we already do that on occasion just to mix it up, with trips to forest home or water plane or whatever, but the way the system is now designed makes these trips feel like you have to "sacrifice XP for the greater good". I guess I just wish I weren't sacrificing character progression to go to obscure areas.

[northstar_08]

Ok, I read through the entire thread and here are my 2 cents

First off I'll start by saying I am probably older than the average gamer on this site and I have a lot of patience. I personally have no trouble with the XP grind from 1 - 40. I realize I am in the minority as just last night a player ("California") stopped playing. This could be for many reasons but I know his XP grind was very slow for him and I think he had trouble finding parties. I was a little annoyed as I spent 1 hour the night before going through all my mules and upgrading his equipment but that is a story for another time
Note: All of the following is based on single Logging. If I can dual log, this all goes out the window but most people on the server seem to have trouble finding parties and I think this thread is geared towards those people who have to grind it out alone.

Now that being said, I also will reiterate what some other players have stated. My standard level 1 to 40 toon follows this path:
- Level 1-2 in home faction
- Levels 3-16 Giant Mountain and surrounding areas
- Levels 17-25 Frostdale
- Levels 26-30 Amazons and Skara (depending on whether or not I can pick a lock)
- Levels 30-35 Dwarves
- Levels 36-40 Usually HoD and sometimes DE
Occasionally I'll wander to Earth, Fire and Goblins

I have not seen Water or the Air plane (unless I need another ring or Brom) in ages. Once I hit 40, I start into the pay to play area of DE, Positive, Elysium and Negative. I don’t go near the Abyss or Celestial unless I am able to dual log or get a small party as these areas are just way too hard to try to solo. Would be really cool though if you got a great amount of xp for the effort if you wanted to try (Mining’s formula suggestion could really help in that regard). Also personally, I don’t see illthids as worth the trouble. The only item of value there (imo) is the short sword and Sarev’s ring (which is hard to solo). The main boss is impossible to solo. Illthids are just not worth it to me unless I need a short sword

I think it would be great if people started wandering off the beaten path a bit more. I know for me though, I will not do this unless there is a strong reason to do so. I want to get my toon to 40 as quick as possible. Suggestions by Ajantis and Midterm would be great if they could be implemented but I am not sure how hard this would be.

Even if something out of the ordinary was present in an off the beaten path area to indicate to the adventurer that something has changed. This could be something as simple as a signpost or an NPC telling the player that something is up. Maybe a shrine to the Party Leaders Deity. Maybe even a wandering hostile Monster faction (3-5 CRs higher but still of the same difficulty) that have temporarily taken over the area. This could be totally random but would be pretty neat if someone stumbled upon it. Maybe even multiple Wandering hostile monster groups (one for levels 5-10, another 10-20, 20-30 and 30-40). Maybe the boss(s) could drop a really nice item or 2 for the appropriate level range. This would certainly encourage exploration a lot more. The trouble is I just have no idea how hard this would be to implement. Maybe a simpler option would be to spawn multiple treasure chests in a boss area to reward the player for his adventuring. And as Developers are all volunteers as is, this may just be too much work.
Now: What Mining suggests seems like a great idea to me although maybe I would adjust it just a little bit as we still want people to feel like they really accomplished something when they get to 40. I don’t think making it too easy will help keep people in Neversummer in the long run. My math skills are not the greatest but maybe just a slight xp decrease adjustment to Mining’s formula would be a good idea.
Anyway, juts my 2 cents. As always, thanks to the Devs and DMs for making Neversummer a great distraction for me for the last 3 years or so.

[Amoenotep]

everyone of those places you listed that you lvl regularly...is also on a someons pk route because its the easiest place to go

also you need to think about this....the planar areas/bosses/very high end of the mod were not intended for someone to solo xp there. it was designed specifically with parties in mind.

[Rufio]

I don't mind needing parties to take on certain areas. I think it is more challenging that way anyways.

But I spent 6 hours last night in a party of 10 people levels 31-35, cleared out all of the plane of water, both bosses, HoK, and all 3 HoK bosses, and only gained 1 1/2 levels. (I started at level 31 and was ecl 2). Even that was a painful grind. By the time you hit 39, it can 8 hours leveling with large parties in endgame areas to hit 40, which is just more time than I have to spend leveling.

Anyways, I don't know what point I was trying to make, I think the devs realize that the level grind sucks.

I like mining's version of lokey's new system.

[Midterm]

In response to Northstar's idea:

This could be as simple as creating a Diviner for Unique Encounters, or simply adding a conversation option to Diviners. In effect, this would be like a quest of some sort. You can make it such that this unique encounter will only spawn if said person triggered the quest, and is on the current map with say... a certain token (tracker). This will also encourage people to check in with their home city once in a while, instead of endlessly farming till 40.

[alasteir]

I tried to stay out of this discussion, but I can't help myself.

MM's formula looks cool, however I also agree with what a few others have already said..... the system works pretty well as is.
In my opinion , NS4 is a very well thought out server, talented staff, immersive PvP, and a great player base really do make this game a lot of fun. I appreciate the sentiment that Deputy Dog wants to keep the existing player base.....I really do, but I would caution against trying to cater to the type of player who "gives up" after a couple of weeks of grinding.

What? California was here two whole weeks...... and he is frustrated that he isn't 40 yet, or couldn't find parties consistently...... that might have had something to do with his snide shouts, as much as anything else.

I think you are already on the right track with player incentives ...... AO jobs, a Fury HQ, and new race options could be a huge boon for the existing players. I am betting that AO jobs, or complete AO jobs, will bring more than a few AORK players back. And the Fury clan has been incredibly active since they joined just a short time ago..... their HQ is well deserved.

The players have always responded well to relic events.....and the Devs/DMs have done a really nice job of giving us a long lead time before events...... this was very effective, as it seemed to have the best results in regard to attendance..... it gave everyone a chance to prepare.