Bigby spells

[mining]

Well, in the case of web bolt, half of shifters are str based, so they'd make their save and get the hell out ((there are 1 save a round, each round at -1 DC, pass one check, and you're out of there) from experience, or something like that). The other half are illithid or in drider form. Illithid is screwed. Drider can only pray noone has FoM or a ranged weapon. Greater Dispel is such a key spell to have memorized, if you don't you need to learn how to play caster. Its a free "ack" moment vs 90% of builds that self buff. A bard can't cats grace all 8 raiders. Also, sorceror. Always have what you need, when you need it.

Touch attacks are amazingly 'eh' vs dexxers. A dexxer has, what, 80 AC? (if its less (e.g. 76), slow bigby renders it useless by default (71ish AC, 1 attack a round). Vs a web bolt, they can always swap out a sling and still do something. That 80 AC breaks down to -6 armor, -5 nat, -9 shield and -6 armor. That leave 'em with 54 AC vs the ranged touch attack. Sancreed, the highest AC you can get off an epic dodging drider (you can get 2 more with monk) gets 73 AC. Thats just pitiful given its only ability is, in essence, to use an inferior slowing bigby. On the topic of bigbys... Level 9 bigby has, what, 58+d20 AB at max DC? Thats quite a brutal AB given as it utterly, totally stops anything without tons of discipline or 70+ minimum AC (and even that stuff'll get tagged on occasion).

Finally, web bolt implies that the toon is beyond useless for the time its using the bolt. All it does is tag once a round, hope FoM isn't going around, and reshift if its safe. A mage on the other hand... Put a melfs on anything that moves, spam IGMS, use team buffs, haste, slow, stun low AC, slow high AC, dispel, mord, grease, IGMS, hammertime and use raise scrolls, nuke, stun, cast II and the like, and they even have such amazing stuff as Hellball to turn the playing field into hell for a second. They even have an AoE implosion equivalent (albeit easily blocked).

[Bargeld]

I wasn't comparing a mage or sorc vs a druid shifter... It was brought up that bigs7 is inferior to web bolt. And it is... even with your calculation of 80 ac being reduced to 54, you've still forgotten that a running target is usually flat footed as well, so lose the dodge and dex AC also. Even without that, you are talking a +46 vs a 54 ac on a toon that started with 80 AC! Most toons run around with 60-65 ac and get reduced down to the 30s for this type of attack.

Doesn't aura of vitality (Spell level: druid 7; cleric with war domain 7 only) add to everyone's str dex con, buffing your 8 raiders? This would be be a maxed dispel resist also.

[Shadowalker]

Meh they are both very ussefully in thier own manor. And both equally agrivating to the target generaly. Battle on.

[Daral0085]

I'm 90% certain that touch attacks are subject to concealment, so against any party-buffed toons, you're actually going to be failing 25% of the time.

[Tsavong]

Meh they are both very ussefully in thier own manor. And both equally agrivating to the target generaly. Battle on.

QFT

[cRaZy8or5e]

Web Bolt is extremely underwhelming for anyone with some FoM wands. FoM automatically removes the web, grasping hands on the other hand stay so said grasping hand caster can hit the target with a Mord and automatically remove said FoM. Web Bolters can't cast a mord without unshifting, readin and casting a mord scroll, shifting back and then hopefully they're still in range of the target to hit it with another web bolt. A mage has usually killed or almost killed it's target in that amount of time.

Yes dismissal wands automatically remove grasping hands as well, in which case you're SoL But the point is that a mage has more and better means of incapacitating targets than a shifter does.

What TC does well is incorporate team tactics which gives the illusion that web bolts are extremely effective.

[burrahobbit]

I dont normally use the lvl 7 bigby, a mage can kill almost anything on the server b4 it can run across the room. The only time I use it is to grab the pesky monks who try to run away.