Dragons
Re: Dragons
in response to your post on the other thread lokey i can post the new stats on my dragon once you implement the changes.
The truth is just an excuse for those with a lack of imagination.
Amoenotep wrote:i still think everyone is just truefalse multi logging an entire server together
Re: Dragons
What I dine to know are the base saving throws set for certain shapes. Tep was kind enough to inform me that adding any certain classes to a shifter wouldnt effect their shifted Saving throws because when you shift your character forgets what it was and becomes that new thingy.
So that must mean that shapes have base savingthrows and that gear/buffs just add to them.
Am I correct in this?
So that must mean that shapes have base savingthrows and that gear/buffs just add to them.
Am I correct in this?
Amoenotep wrote:Interesting turn of events.....
Re: Dragons
While I'm not sure how it works, it's true at least that different shapes end up with different saving throws when you ignore the stat boost.
So far I've only found some shapes that have more fort than you'd normally expect, but the amount varies also. Either way its a tad confusing, the willsaves and reflex saves do fit perfectly with what my char would normally have.
Plus I have 2 shifters the one with rogue lvls added somehow has quite a higher reflex save than the druid/shifter. So I dont think its just some shape saves + stats and gear.
So far I've only found some shapes that have more fort than you'd normally expect, but the amount varies also. Either way its a tad confusing, the willsaves and reflex saves do fit perfectly with what my char would normally have.
Plus I have 2 shifters the one with rogue lvls added somehow has quite a higher reflex save than the druid/shifter. So I dont think its just some shape saves + stats and gear.
Re: Dragons
+ base saves + feats
Tep wrote:I login and there's a dwarf to kill. You can't ask for much more than that.
Alkapwn wrote:NC has the most amazing melee build there is. Its a friggin unstopable juggernaut of pain.
Re: Dragons
So it was Tep not me who doesnt know what they were talking about in the other thread!
Yay me!
So yeah like i said, Add some rogue.
Yay me!
So yeah like i said, Add some rogue.
Amoenotep wrote:Interesting turn of events.....
Re: Dragons
Well what I have posted below I have posted, taken down twice...this thread seems to be more appropriate since general feel is comparing RDD dragons to Druid dragons. Basically it is a hypothetical level progression comparison between the two dragon builds to demostrate how the builds differ and that RDD dragons are stronger builds. Not saying better just stronger. I have not calculated everything out as far as BAB, AC and might have some incorrect. I focused on showing the differences in ability stat scores and feat options. This is a long post (actually two posts I pulled & merged into one) so ye be warned as to its length. Anyway here it is...see how long before I pull it (assuming not locked before I do):
A lot has been written comparing RDD dragons to Druid dragons and Shifter dragons. Focusing sololy on the dragonform stats with disregard to the base builds abilities and feats or the possibilities lying within the different combination of those feats, ability scores and skill points therein. There has been claims that it is unfair that changes were not across the board. RDD dragons were not balanced nor on par with druid or shifter dragons from implemenetation; due to inherent differences within the base classes and requirements that make up the builds. With druids and shifter versions, it is long standing that to obtain dragonshape the build must be free of any other class...no monk, no rogue, no sorc, etc. Also a druid or druid/shifter is required to possess natural wisdom ability of 30. These requirements were not implemeted with RDD dragons, which has always left me to ponder why. If RDD dragons build were restricted to Sorc 10/RDD 30 (for example) and a wisdom ability score of 30 (without gear) then a comparison would make more since, but that is not how was implemented, nor am I asking for such a change. Just pointing out the class options and underlying feats, ability score and skill point differences create a very large gap in melee performace between a RDD dragon when compared to a druid or shifter dragon. Any dragon build comparison without including the base classes and requirements in the analyse and the inherent differences therein would be lacking and misleading.
From some of the statements made in other threads, one might come away with the impression that there is little difference between dragon builds, which could not farther from the truth. There is very large difference between the builds. The difference does not arise from the dragonshape but shapes overlay over the base classes that make up the build. Therein lays the necessiaty for balancing.
Furthermore, dragonshape was modified and tested over a base of druids or druid/shifters. When RDD was given this ability; it was given what was designed and balanced based on druids. This is the issue causing and need to specifically balance RDD. I am sorry anyone is experiencing a reduction in their builds prowless. However, originally, dragonshape was not modified and balanced when overlayed class combinations available to RDD.
Yes this nerf impacts Ancient Ones only, however this is not nor will be last time a nerf impacts only one faction. The Devs are working best they can to make this a balanced and enjoyable experience for all the visit. The task is to great to do in any other manner than one piece at a time. As evidenced by changes to CoT, Shifter, etc...
As far as dragonshape goes, last I checked the druid class is available to Ancient Ones. Which means there are 2 dragon builds available to Ancient Ones: 30 RDD combination and pure druid/dragon. However, the prevailing AO choice has been the 30 RDD dragon. Why is that? Given the statements made in this thread claiming there are few difference between them, which I strongly disagree with, one would conclude there would be an equal distribution of druid and RDD dragons in AO, but that is not what is occuring. The fact that the Ancient Ones' dragons tend to be 30 RDD gives evidence that there is a significant advantage over pure druid dragons. It was stated that RDD dragons are very difficult to level, however I have encountered a prevailing opinion that druids are the opposite, again I disagree but not the point. If druid dragons are easier to level and are available in AO, then why are there not more of them used there? Again is it because there is a distinct advantage provided by RDD verions not available to Druid versions? Question raising here is why the preference...not stating or making the claim there are no AO druid dragons...just observing that the trend was in favor of RDD version and wondering why this is the case based on the CLAIM there is little difference between the builds, again I disagree. Is it because there was an advantage for RDD over druid?
From a player that plays a pure druid dragon and has fought RDD dragons, in my humble opinion: pure druid dragons were at a distinct disadvantage to pre-nerf RDD dragon. I have not encountered enough post nerf RDD dragons to make a statement one way or another after the change. However, With that said, I would expect to lose more battles than win due to RDD's superior AB and damage. Based on information in another thread, RDD dragons still have higher AC than druid dragon.
Dragonshape was designed with a druid and/or druid/shifter base. When RDD was given dragonshape, the RDD class combinations available with dragonshape would require balancing. This was inevitable.
OK, I wrote this month or so ago, but took it down. Reposting to demostrate and show that there is a difference between RDD and Druid dragon builds due to the inherent differences within the base classes.
Someone once stated: "A druid (or druid/shifter) dragon is only SLIGHTLY different from a 30 RDD dragon. Different in that the RDD needs only 30 RDD levels, leaving 10 free levels (albeit 1 must be sorc/bard to qualify for RDD). The ONLY difference being that 10 levels, which if you go for the feat must be druid/shifter only (and required wisdom)."
Those 10 lvls and not having to invest in 30 wisdom makes more than a slight difference. Druid/dragon must be pure, no other class other than shifter. To start off with; discipline. Discipline is a RDD class skill, but not for druid or shifter. This translates to possible 44 discipline for RDD while druid or druid/shifter 22. Second during those 10 lvls a RDD dragon is able to choose a class with tumble as a class skill - which translates to saving skill points to apply to other skills. At lvl 20 a RDD with say monk, bard or rogue class mixed into those 10 lvls would only have to spend 20 skill points to gain the +4 ac bonus from tumble ranks. A druid or druid/shifter would have to spend 40 skill points in tumble to achieve same +4 ac from tumble ranks and achieve much later in lvl progression. To off set the skill point load tumble would require, since a cross class skill, a druid or druid/shifter would need to invest 2 more ability points in INT, taking away from other ability categories, which is another reason RDD dragon is stronger, but will get to that soon enough.
When RDD dragon multi classes with rogue or monk, it receives evasion. Druid/shifter dragons will not. Evasion translates to allowing reflex save to save the RDD dragon from damage from many spells, especially druid spells, traps and a rival dragon's breath weapon.
RDD dragons are able to easily obtain blinding speed. The benefits of +1 to ab & +2 to ac are huge help to any build, not to meantion any build without haste or blinding speed is at a severe disadvantage in any pvp encounter. A druid dragon would have to sacrafice STR, CON, WIS, INT and CHA to acheive, or access to a +4 dex book and still sacrafice other abillities scores. RDD dragons do not have to spend any extra points in WIS, leaving points open to CON, DEX, INT and STR to boast ab, damage, ac and hps. All of which will improve RDD dragon's performance in PVP.
Druids only receive 3 attacks per turn. RDD limited to same, unless monk class is multiclassed into it, then RDD dragon would have 5 attacks over druid's 3. This is to the RDD's advantage.
If rogue is choosen in the those mere 10 lvls, then the RDD dragon would receive uncanny dodge in addition to evasion. This adds the benefit of retaining DEX bonus to AC even when flatfooted. Dragon size is as much a strength as it is a weakness. During a pvp encounter while chasing an opponent another opponet may and do block the Dragon's path, causing the target to be out of reach, canceling attack resulting in dragon being flatfooted taking away dodge bonus to ac. A RDD dragon may build around that, druid/dragon can not.
Stunning fist: RDD dragon build may select monk as part of that other 10 levels. This gives the RDD stunning fist at 1st monk lvl, thereby saving 2 feats. A druid/dragon would have to spend those 2 feats on improved unarmed strike and stunning fist. Druids only receive 19 feats if pure druid, same as a RDD dragon. In this example, 2 feats are spent for the druid for stunning fist, not to mention the feat dragon shape just to become a dragon, not so for the RDD. So the RDD has all 19 feats to choose from while 3 are decided for the pure druid leaving only 16 to go. A monk RDD would also receive improved KD at monk class lvl 6, saving more feats for the RDD. A pure druid to obtain simliar would spend yet another 2 feats, reducing feats to choose from 16 to 14. RDD is still able to do as they please with the 19 feats available to it. Number of stunning fist attempts per day for RDD if takes monk to 9 lvls would have 9 attempts at lvl 20. A druid would have 10 (I think) at lvl 40. Only 1 more attempt over RDD dragon, which maybe offset by RDD taking extra stunning feat for 3 more attempts per day, so 1 feat used 18 to go. If druid selects extra stunning along with with imp unarmed and stunning fist durid /dragon now down to 13 feats left to choose.
Its been claimed in other threads that there is only a slight difference between druid dragons and RDD dragons...I believe what I have demostrated that there is more than a slight difference between the dragon builds.
Not convinced...fine...say two builds both want stunning fist, knockdown, blinding speed and dragon shape. One AO RDD dragon other druid/dragon. Using same subrace...wild elf same starting stats. (Also add adjuration and arcane defense as was suggested for near undisspellable buffs).
For demostration purposes only (not endorsing or advocating these actually be built).
Druid/dragon (pure)
lvl 1 (druid)
STR 8
DEX 17
CON 6
WIS 20
INT 12
CHA 6
RDD Dragon (RDD/Monk/SORC)
lvl 1 (monk)
STR 8
DEX 17
CON 6
WIS 20
INT 12
CHA 6
Druid/dragon
Lvl 4 WIS
lvl 8 WIS
lvl 10 +2 TOMES (WIS, DEX, INT)
lvl 12 WIS
lvl 16 WIS
lvl 20 WIS
lvl 24 WIS
lvl 28 WIS
lvl 32 WIS
lvl 36 DEX
lvl 40 DEX
RDD Dragon
Lvl 4 DEX
lvl 8 DEX (+2 STR from RDD)
lvl 10 +2 TOMES (WIS, DEX, INT; Both builds) (+2 STR from RDD)
lvl 12 DEX
lvl 13 (+2 CON from RDD)
lvl 15 (+2 INT from RDD)
lvl 16 DEX (+4 STR & +2 CHA from RDD)
lvl 20 DEX
lvl 24 DEX
lvl 28 WIS
lvl 32 WIS
lvl 36 WIS
lvl 40 WIS
Druid/Dragon
lvl 40
STR 8
DEX 25 (Have to use +2 DEX tome)
CON 6
WIS 30 (Have to use +2 WIS tome)
INT 14
CHA 6
RDD dragon
lvl 40
STR 16
DEX 25 (+2 DEX for comparison)
CON 8
WIS 26 (+2 WIS for comparison)
INT 16
CHA 8
Druid/Dragon
Hps 240
Skill points 231
Attacks per 3 (4 with blinding speed)
Speed bonus 0%
(without blinding speed)
Stunning fist DC 45
AC from tumble +4 (at lvl 38)
AC from RDD 0
Non dragon & no armor
Natural AC 21
RDD Dragon
Hps 308
Skill points 195
Attacks per 5 (6 with blinding speed)
Speed bonus 130%
(without blinding speed)
Stunning fist DC 43
AC from tumble +4 (at lvl 20)
AC from RDD +4 (at lvl 17)
Non dragon & no armor
Natural AC 25
Druid/Dragon
Of the 7 pre-epic feats to achieve stated goal:
feat 1 (lvl 1) Improved unarmed strike
feat 2 (lvl 3) Stunning fist
feat 3 (lvl 6) Extra stunning fist
feat 4 (lvl 9) Knockdown
feat 5 (lvl 12) Spell focus Adjuration
feat 6 (lvl 15) Arcane Defense
feat 7 (lvl 18) Quicken
Of the 7 post epic feats to achieve stated goal:
feat 8 (lvl 21) Great DEX
feat 9 (lvl 24) Great DEX
feat 10 (lvl 27) Great DEX
feat 11 (lvl 30) Great DEX
feat 12 (lvl 33) Hell Ball
feat 13 (lvl 36) DRAGONSHAPE
feat 14 (lvl 39) Auto Quicken 3
Bonus feats due to epic lvls:
bonus feat 1 (lvl 24) Greater spell focus Adj
bonus feat 2 (lvl 28) Epic spell focus Adj
bonus feat 3 (lvl 32) Auto Quicken 1
bonus feat 4 (lvl 36) Auto Quicken 2
bonus feat 5 (lvl 40) Blinding Speed
Free feats provided by classes:
Druid/Dragon
Natures sense
Animal Companion (disabled)
Woodland Stride
Trackless Step
Resist Nature's Lure
Wild Shape
Venom Immunity
Elemental Shape
(no more feat slots left)
RDD Dragon
Of the 7 pre-epic feats to achieve stated goal:
feat 1 (lvl 1) Extra Stunning fist
feat 2 (lvl 3) *
feat 3 (lvl 6) *
feat 4 (lvl 9) *
feat 5 (lvl 12) *
feat 6 (lvl 15) *
feat 7 (lvl 18) *
(* you choose not relevant to the point attempting to make)
RDD Dragon
Of the 7 post epic feats to achieve stated goal:
feat 8 (lvl 21) *
feat 9 (lvl 24) Blinding Speed
feat 10 (lvl 27) *
feat 11 (lvl 30) *
feat 12 (lvl 33) *
feat 13 (lvl 36) *
feat 14 (lvl 39) *
RDD Dragon
Bonus feats due to epic lvls
bonus feat 1 (lvl 24) *
bonus feat 2 (lvl 28) *
bonus feat 3 (lvl 32) *
bonus feat 4 (lvl 36) *
bonus feat 5 (lvl 40) *
RDD Dragon
Free feats provided by classes:
Impr. unarmed strike
Stunning Fist
Deflect Arrows
Knockdown
Impr. knockdown
Monk AC bonus (does not apply to dragon)
Flurry of Blows
Evasion
Monk Speed (130% at lvl 9 monk)
Purity of Body
Wholeness of Body
Improved Evasion (lvl 9 monk)
Draconic Armor (+4 natural AC RDD lvl 10)
Draconic ability scores
Hit dice d8 (RDD lvl 4)
Hit dice d10**
Darkvision**
Immunity to sleep, paralysis and fire**
(** Lvl 10 RDD)
(17 feats to choose at your discretion)
RDD has 17 feats to choose from to round out build as you please.
Druid version may as option remove quicken, auto quicken 3 and hellball as well as spell focuses and arcane defense to free up 9 feats if you'd rather have others feats than those.
RDD dragon will have 5 attacks, higher hps, higher ac, more survivable when not in dragon form (IMO), 130% speed (before blinding activated or ends), imp kd, imp evasion, higher ab (from STR), higher damage (from higher STR), higher Disc (feats available to take epic skill: disc), higher spot (available feat slot to take epic skill: spot) and does not have to use tomes to achieve build objectives (use remaining feats to boast DEX instead, great DEX) if choose not too.
Do not discount the importance of having imp evasion in RDD Dragon build.
RDD dragon non-shifted disc approximately 56 and spot 54 (not including gear). RDD dragon able to boast spot skill by using true sight helm, 74, or from party bard focus in divination, 84. (Assuming Epic skill: disc & spot choosen)
Druid have buffs that may or may not be dispellable (the ones subject to Mords will still drop including regen, FoM, Stoneskin and premonition), only 3 attacks, less hps, lower ac (in and out of dragonshape), more skill points, stunning DC 2 pts higher and must use tomes to achieve build objectives. No imp evasion. Druid subject to knockdown as much as any arcane caster, will need to shift to dragon before melee types reach and kd.
Druid non-shifted disc approximately 22 and spot 22 (not including gear or spells) Build is able to get spot to 42 with true sight spell.
I believe the above shows that there are SIGNIFICANT differences between Druid dragon and RDD Dragon builds.
A lot has been written comparing RDD dragons to Druid dragons and Shifter dragons. Focusing sololy on the dragonform stats with disregard to the base builds abilities and feats or the possibilities lying within the different combination of those feats, ability scores and skill points therein. There has been claims that it is unfair that changes were not across the board. RDD dragons were not balanced nor on par with druid or shifter dragons from implemenetation; due to inherent differences within the base classes and requirements that make up the builds. With druids and shifter versions, it is long standing that to obtain dragonshape the build must be free of any other class...no monk, no rogue, no sorc, etc. Also a druid or druid/shifter is required to possess natural wisdom ability of 30. These requirements were not implemeted with RDD dragons, which has always left me to ponder why. If RDD dragons build were restricted to Sorc 10/RDD 30 (for example) and a wisdom ability score of 30 (without gear) then a comparison would make more since, but that is not how was implemented, nor am I asking for such a change. Just pointing out the class options and underlying feats, ability score and skill point differences create a very large gap in melee performace between a RDD dragon when compared to a druid or shifter dragon. Any dragon build comparison without including the base classes and requirements in the analyse and the inherent differences therein would be lacking and misleading.
From some of the statements made in other threads, one might come away with the impression that there is little difference between dragon builds, which could not farther from the truth. There is very large difference between the builds. The difference does not arise from the dragonshape but shapes overlay over the base classes that make up the build. Therein lays the necessiaty for balancing.
Furthermore, dragonshape was modified and tested over a base of druids or druid/shifters. When RDD was given this ability; it was given what was designed and balanced based on druids. This is the issue causing and need to specifically balance RDD. I am sorry anyone is experiencing a reduction in their builds prowless. However, originally, dragonshape was not modified and balanced when overlayed class combinations available to RDD.
Yes this nerf impacts Ancient Ones only, however this is not nor will be last time a nerf impacts only one faction. The Devs are working best they can to make this a balanced and enjoyable experience for all the visit. The task is to great to do in any other manner than one piece at a time. As evidenced by changes to CoT, Shifter, etc...
As far as dragonshape goes, last I checked the druid class is available to Ancient Ones. Which means there are 2 dragon builds available to Ancient Ones: 30 RDD combination and pure druid/dragon. However, the prevailing AO choice has been the 30 RDD dragon. Why is that? Given the statements made in this thread claiming there are few difference between them, which I strongly disagree with, one would conclude there would be an equal distribution of druid and RDD dragons in AO, but that is not what is occuring. The fact that the Ancient Ones' dragons tend to be 30 RDD gives evidence that there is a significant advantage over pure druid dragons. It was stated that RDD dragons are very difficult to level, however I have encountered a prevailing opinion that druids are the opposite, again I disagree but not the point. If druid dragons are easier to level and are available in AO, then why are there not more of them used there? Again is it because there is a distinct advantage provided by RDD verions not available to Druid versions? Question raising here is why the preference...not stating or making the claim there are no AO druid dragons...just observing that the trend was in favor of RDD version and wondering why this is the case based on the CLAIM there is little difference between the builds, again I disagree. Is it because there was an advantage for RDD over druid?
From a player that plays a pure druid dragon and has fought RDD dragons, in my humble opinion: pure druid dragons were at a distinct disadvantage to pre-nerf RDD dragon. I have not encountered enough post nerf RDD dragons to make a statement one way or another after the change. However, With that said, I would expect to lose more battles than win due to RDD's superior AB and damage. Based on information in another thread, RDD dragons still have higher AC than druid dragon.
Dragonshape was designed with a druid and/or druid/shifter base. When RDD was given dragonshape, the RDD class combinations available with dragonshape would require balancing. This was inevitable.
OK, I wrote this month or so ago, but took it down. Reposting to demostrate and show that there is a difference between RDD and Druid dragon builds due to the inherent differences within the base classes.
Someone once stated: "A druid (or druid/shifter) dragon is only SLIGHTLY different from a 30 RDD dragon. Different in that the RDD needs only 30 RDD levels, leaving 10 free levels (albeit 1 must be sorc/bard to qualify for RDD). The ONLY difference being that 10 levels, which if you go for the feat must be druid/shifter only (and required wisdom)."
Those 10 lvls and not having to invest in 30 wisdom makes more than a slight difference. Druid/dragon must be pure, no other class other than shifter. To start off with; discipline. Discipline is a RDD class skill, but not for druid or shifter. This translates to possible 44 discipline for RDD while druid or druid/shifter 22. Second during those 10 lvls a RDD dragon is able to choose a class with tumble as a class skill - which translates to saving skill points to apply to other skills. At lvl 20 a RDD with say monk, bard or rogue class mixed into those 10 lvls would only have to spend 20 skill points to gain the +4 ac bonus from tumble ranks. A druid or druid/shifter would have to spend 40 skill points in tumble to achieve same +4 ac from tumble ranks and achieve much later in lvl progression. To off set the skill point load tumble would require, since a cross class skill, a druid or druid/shifter would need to invest 2 more ability points in INT, taking away from other ability categories, which is another reason RDD dragon is stronger, but will get to that soon enough.
When RDD dragon multi classes with rogue or monk, it receives evasion. Druid/shifter dragons will not. Evasion translates to allowing reflex save to save the RDD dragon from damage from many spells, especially druid spells, traps and a rival dragon's breath weapon.
RDD dragons are able to easily obtain blinding speed. The benefits of +1 to ab & +2 to ac are huge help to any build, not to meantion any build without haste or blinding speed is at a severe disadvantage in any pvp encounter. A druid dragon would have to sacrafice STR, CON, WIS, INT and CHA to acheive, or access to a +4 dex book and still sacrafice other abillities scores. RDD dragons do not have to spend any extra points in WIS, leaving points open to CON, DEX, INT and STR to boast ab, damage, ac and hps. All of which will improve RDD dragon's performance in PVP.
Druids only receive 3 attacks per turn. RDD limited to same, unless monk class is multiclassed into it, then RDD dragon would have 5 attacks over druid's 3. This is to the RDD's advantage.
If rogue is choosen in the those mere 10 lvls, then the RDD dragon would receive uncanny dodge in addition to evasion. This adds the benefit of retaining DEX bonus to AC even when flatfooted. Dragon size is as much a strength as it is a weakness. During a pvp encounter while chasing an opponent another opponet may and do block the Dragon's path, causing the target to be out of reach, canceling attack resulting in dragon being flatfooted taking away dodge bonus to ac. A RDD dragon may build around that, druid/dragon can not.
Stunning fist: RDD dragon build may select monk as part of that other 10 levels. This gives the RDD stunning fist at 1st monk lvl, thereby saving 2 feats. A druid/dragon would have to spend those 2 feats on improved unarmed strike and stunning fist. Druids only receive 19 feats if pure druid, same as a RDD dragon. In this example, 2 feats are spent for the druid for stunning fist, not to mention the feat dragon shape just to become a dragon, not so for the RDD. So the RDD has all 19 feats to choose from while 3 are decided for the pure druid leaving only 16 to go. A monk RDD would also receive improved KD at monk class lvl 6, saving more feats for the RDD. A pure druid to obtain simliar would spend yet another 2 feats, reducing feats to choose from 16 to 14. RDD is still able to do as they please with the 19 feats available to it. Number of stunning fist attempts per day for RDD if takes monk to 9 lvls would have 9 attempts at lvl 20. A druid would have 10 (I think) at lvl 40. Only 1 more attempt over RDD dragon, which maybe offset by RDD taking extra stunning feat for 3 more attempts per day, so 1 feat used 18 to go. If druid selects extra stunning along with with imp unarmed and stunning fist durid /dragon now down to 13 feats left to choose.
Its been claimed in other threads that there is only a slight difference between druid dragons and RDD dragons...I believe what I have demostrated that there is more than a slight difference between the dragon builds.
Not convinced...fine...say two builds both want stunning fist, knockdown, blinding speed and dragon shape. One AO RDD dragon other druid/dragon. Using same subrace...wild elf same starting stats. (Also add adjuration and arcane defense as was suggested for near undisspellable buffs).
For demostration purposes only (not endorsing or advocating these actually be built).
Druid/dragon (pure)
lvl 1 (druid)
STR 8
DEX 17
CON 6
WIS 20
INT 12
CHA 6
RDD Dragon (RDD/Monk/SORC)
lvl 1 (monk)
STR 8
DEX 17
CON 6
WIS 20
INT 12
CHA 6
Druid/dragon
Lvl 4 WIS
lvl 8 WIS
lvl 10 +2 TOMES (WIS, DEX, INT)
lvl 12 WIS
lvl 16 WIS
lvl 20 WIS
lvl 24 WIS
lvl 28 WIS
lvl 32 WIS
lvl 36 DEX
lvl 40 DEX
RDD Dragon
Lvl 4 DEX
lvl 8 DEX (+2 STR from RDD)
lvl 10 +2 TOMES (WIS, DEX, INT; Both builds) (+2 STR from RDD)
lvl 12 DEX
lvl 13 (+2 CON from RDD)
lvl 15 (+2 INT from RDD)
lvl 16 DEX (+4 STR & +2 CHA from RDD)
lvl 20 DEX
lvl 24 DEX
lvl 28 WIS
lvl 32 WIS
lvl 36 WIS
lvl 40 WIS
Druid/Dragon
lvl 40
STR 8
DEX 25 (Have to use +2 DEX tome)
CON 6
WIS 30 (Have to use +2 WIS tome)
INT 14
CHA 6
RDD dragon
lvl 40
STR 16
DEX 25 (+2 DEX for comparison)
CON 8
WIS 26 (+2 WIS for comparison)
INT 16
CHA 8
Druid/Dragon
Hps 240
Skill points 231
Attacks per 3 (4 with blinding speed)
Speed bonus 0%
(without blinding speed)
Stunning fist DC 45
AC from tumble +4 (at lvl 38)
AC from RDD 0
Non dragon & no armor
Natural AC 21
RDD Dragon
Hps 308
Skill points 195
Attacks per 5 (6 with blinding speed)
Speed bonus 130%
(without blinding speed)
Stunning fist DC 43
AC from tumble +4 (at lvl 20)
AC from RDD +4 (at lvl 17)
Non dragon & no armor
Natural AC 25
Druid/Dragon
Of the 7 pre-epic feats to achieve stated goal:
feat 1 (lvl 1) Improved unarmed strike
feat 2 (lvl 3) Stunning fist
feat 3 (lvl 6) Extra stunning fist
feat 4 (lvl 9) Knockdown
feat 5 (lvl 12) Spell focus Adjuration
feat 6 (lvl 15) Arcane Defense
feat 7 (lvl 18) Quicken
Of the 7 post epic feats to achieve stated goal:
feat 8 (lvl 21) Great DEX
feat 9 (lvl 24) Great DEX
feat 10 (lvl 27) Great DEX
feat 11 (lvl 30) Great DEX
feat 12 (lvl 33) Hell Ball
feat 13 (lvl 36) DRAGONSHAPE
feat 14 (lvl 39) Auto Quicken 3
Bonus feats due to epic lvls:
bonus feat 1 (lvl 24) Greater spell focus Adj
bonus feat 2 (lvl 28) Epic spell focus Adj
bonus feat 3 (lvl 32) Auto Quicken 1
bonus feat 4 (lvl 36) Auto Quicken 2
bonus feat 5 (lvl 40) Blinding Speed
Free feats provided by classes:
Druid/Dragon
Natures sense
Animal Companion (disabled)
Woodland Stride
Trackless Step
Resist Nature's Lure
Wild Shape
Venom Immunity
Elemental Shape
(no more feat slots left)
RDD Dragon
Of the 7 pre-epic feats to achieve stated goal:
feat 1 (lvl 1) Extra Stunning fist
feat 2 (lvl 3) *
feat 3 (lvl 6) *
feat 4 (lvl 9) *
feat 5 (lvl 12) *
feat 6 (lvl 15) *
feat 7 (lvl 18) *
(* you choose not relevant to the point attempting to make)
RDD Dragon
Of the 7 post epic feats to achieve stated goal:
feat 8 (lvl 21) *
feat 9 (lvl 24) Blinding Speed
feat 10 (lvl 27) *
feat 11 (lvl 30) *
feat 12 (lvl 33) *
feat 13 (lvl 36) *
feat 14 (lvl 39) *
RDD Dragon
Bonus feats due to epic lvls
bonus feat 1 (lvl 24) *
bonus feat 2 (lvl 28) *
bonus feat 3 (lvl 32) *
bonus feat 4 (lvl 36) *
bonus feat 5 (lvl 40) *
RDD Dragon
Free feats provided by classes:
Impr. unarmed strike
Stunning Fist
Deflect Arrows
Knockdown
Impr. knockdown
Monk AC bonus (does not apply to dragon)
Flurry of Blows
Evasion
Monk Speed (130% at lvl 9 monk)
Purity of Body
Wholeness of Body
Improved Evasion (lvl 9 monk)
Draconic Armor (+4 natural AC RDD lvl 10)
Draconic ability scores
Hit dice d8 (RDD lvl 4)
Hit dice d10**
Darkvision**
Immunity to sleep, paralysis and fire**
(** Lvl 10 RDD)
(17 feats to choose at your discretion)
RDD has 17 feats to choose from to round out build as you please.
Druid version may as option remove quicken, auto quicken 3 and hellball as well as spell focuses and arcane defense to free up 9 feats if you'd rather have others feats than those.
RDD dragon will have 5 attacks, higher hps, higher ac, more survivable when not in dragon form (IMO), 130% speed (before blinding activated or ends), imp kd, imp evasion, higher ab (from STR), higher damage (from higher STR), higher Disc (feats available to take epic skill: disc), higher spot (available feat slot to take epic skill: spot) and does not have to use tomes to achieve build objectives (use remaining feats to boast DEX instead, great DEX) if choose not too.
Do not discount the importance of having imp evasion in RDD Dragon build.
RDD dragon non-shifted disc approximately 56 and spot 54 (not including gear). RDD dragon able to boast spot skill by using true sight helm, 74, or from party bard focus in divination, 84. (Assuming Epic skill: disc & spot choosen)
Druid have buffs that may or may not be dispellable (the ones subject to Mords will still drop including regen, FoM, Stoneskin and premonition), only 3 attacks, less hps, lower ac (in and out of dragonshape), more skill points, stunning DC 2 pts higher and must use tomes to achieve build objectives. No imp evasion. Druid subject to knockdown as much as any arcane caster, will need to shift to dragon before melee types reach and kd.
Druid non-shifted disc approximately 22 and spot 22 (not including gear or spells) Build is able to get spot to 42 with true sight spell.
I believe the above shows that there are SIGNIFICANT differences between Druid dragon and RDD Dragon builds.
Murphy's Law:
Nothing is as easy as it looks.
Everything takes longer than you expect.
And if anything can go wrong,
It will, at the worst possible moment.
Nothing is as easy as it looks.
Everything takes longer than you expect.
And if anything can go wrong,
It will, at the worst possible moment.
-
Jacks Revenge
- Pk Bait
- Posts: 73
- Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:36 am
Re: Dragons
HAHAH I guess you never saw the feat choices for epic RDD levels
Re: Dragons
How does the RDD dragon have higher strenght?
the +str bonus from RDD doesnt get carried over into the dragon shape does it?
And I thought RDD Get +8 AC from the draconic armor.
the +str bonus from RDD doesnt get carried over into the dragon shape does it?
And I thought RDD Get +8 AC from the draconic armor.
Re: Dragons
Elda youre comparing 2 specific builds. . . in my opinion is always a mistake.
1 v 1 youd be amazed at what a druid potentially could do to a 30 RDD dragon. Lets start with hellball for an easy KD, greater dispelling (there go ALL those rods/wands/scrolls). Grease, Vine Mine, Creeping Doom, Solar/Slaadi, mass camouflage, Storm of Vengeance, heal, mass heal, oh and lets not forget the ever so lovely ice storm. After that list, "but wait theres more!" "much more?" "lots more!" (for those who get that quote) whats left? A dragon. . . 3x/day, infinite elemental (say fire?) forms, infinite animal forms ($20 says ur panther outlasts his blinding speed).
Anyone who runs the planes regularly doesnt go willy-nilly into the white lords room, black lords room, celestia, abyss, etc, etc, etc. Its about the tactics that let you win. . . after setting out that druid(/shifter) x/x/rdd cant be compared thats what you did it seems elda.
1 v 1 youd be amazed at what a druid potentially could do to a 30 RDD dragon. Lets start with hellball for an easy KD, greater dispelling (there go ALL those rods/wands/scrolls). Grease, Vine Mine, Creeping Doom, Solar/Slaadi, mass camouflage, Storm of Vengeance, heal, mass heal, oh and lets not forget the ever so lovely ice storm. After that list, "but wait theres more!" "much more?" "lots more!" (for those who get that quote) whats left? A dragon. . . 3x/day, infinite elemental (say fire?) forms, infinite animal forms ($20 says ur panther outlasts his blinding speed).
Anyone who runs the planes regularly doesnt go willy-nilly into the white lords room, black lords room, celestia, abyss, etc, etc, etc. Its about the tactics that let you win. . . after setting out that druid(/shifter) x/x/rdd cant be compared thats what you did it seems elda.
Amoenotep wrote:korr is the greatest
Re: Dragons
It would only make sense if shifting from shape to shape is instant like in wow 
*hides because he mentioned wow*
*hides because he mentioned wow*
Re: Dragons
Sorry this post got long as I was typing it.
Okay I've built a druid dragon and have lvl'd with the RDD's and will instert my $0.02. And I have compared the differences between shifter and druid dragons before on the forums. And there are at least 3 maybe 4 Druid dragons in AO. I haven't built mine yet because I was focusing on getting the other toons I needed to help people level, now I'm remaking my classic toons. It started with Blood Orchid and now Aiea the Chaos is mid level and Lilly should be back soon with Aspen.
"Also a druid or druid/shifter is required to possess natural wisdom ability of 30. These requirements were not implemeted with RDD dragons, which has always left me to ponder why. If RDD dragons build were restricted to Sorc 10/RDD 30 (for example) and a wisdom ability score of 30 (without gear) then a comparison would make more since, but that is not how was implemented, nor am I asking for such a change."
RDD has 2 classes that can make an RDD if you want a "purist" like the druid neither of which wisdom is the basic stat. If this change is made then it should be CHA instead and then you should change the druid and druid/shifter to be pure also with the druid/shifter to have 10/30. That's exactly what some are asking for the RDD. In your discussion you also forget to include that you only need 10 shifter levels to get your dragon with a fear aura. That leaves you 30 caster levels and the ability to buff yourself and deshift and cast as I have seen many do then shift back and go melee. Remember that the fear aura was removed from the pure druid dragon based on the 40 caster levels and the shifter did not have a caster presence. The RDD is already more limited than the druid or shifter in the caster presence (except for the 30 shifter levels). The RDD does not get this flexibility, at most they get 10 caster levels so there is no selfbuffing (including no truesight) or combat presence for it and only one shift per rest and cannot be flexible. I know that when I used to die in while shifted and got raised I loved that I had 2 shifts left for my dragon or I could go to Air Elemental form. I know you do this too Elda. And I know when your dragon isn't working you go to casting or to Air elemental form. Druid dragons also get the highest SR possible short of monks in a pure druid dragon. I and acknowledge that the 30 shifter gets only 10 caster levels to max out it's fear aura but remember it gets 3 shifts and other shapes to help it out.
I know that I had a much easier time leveling my druid dragon since I had access to other shapes and my spells to aid me. Most RDD build are more like leveling my pure rogue and require a party. Druid and Druid/shifter builds also can get access to their dragon long before 40 and even get it in 2 stages. The RDD is limited to getting its dragon at level 40.
My druid dragon builds have so many skill points that I put them in stuff that's considered "fluff" like animal empathy that make leveling it easier and this is pointed out in your comparison. And no you don't get max tumble in it (neither does the RDD ) but you get spellcraft and concentration where spellcraft adds to your saves and concentration lests you cast in combat and avoid taunt. You also get access to epic spells that you can cast while shifted and summons that let you lvl faster as you sit back and cast or help you distract/damage while you shift into a suitable form. The druid and druid/shifter fill different roles. There was a husband and wife that leveled their shifters with 2 of the RDD dragons in AO and me and they were the only ones standing sometimes in the fights we were in.
Elda, you mention that they get access to uncanny dodge but I tested Tru3Fals3's RDD and he falls down to a lvl 5 toon casting grease and rarely "evades" reflex spells or traps. This was before the the reflex was bumped the other day. But that reflex save doesn't help when you can't pass it cuz your reflex is 19 to 21. Also you brought up many class mix in's and yes they are accurate for what you say they can do ( to the best of my knowledge) but you only get 10 levels all pre-epic and you can't have all those benefits. You have to pick the niche you want in it. Do you want the monk benefis of 10 levels or the rogue ones? Not many of the RDD's have stunning fist either. They don't have the wisdom for it so most of them pumped the dex to make it what it fits with, a melee tank. An equivalent would be to nerf your druids wisdom saying that the stuning fist DC was not fair and that you should be limited in your will save since you get to get high fixed STR and DEX and CON and therefore you can pump wisdom to get super high will saves and SF DC and still have very nice FORT and Reflex saves and you can take the same bonus feats to pump them even higher.
Elda, I have witnessed your method for combating the RDD's and it's very effecitve. You make use of the fact that they don't have fom and cast vine mine and creeping doom in the combat area then shift and wait for them. That's how Deadeyes got slaughtered by you. It forced them to wait until someone can buff them up before going one on one with you.
I've really tried to stayout of this for the most part. And Elda, this is not personally to you. You know I love you sis. And I'm not saying that one is better than the other, you can't compare them because they are so different and fill different roles.
Elda go back and look at the UNSHIFTED stats you posted with and open mind and see what they really say. Caster that can have a DC45 Stunning fist, near undispellable buffs, auto quickened spell caster, poison immunity, more skill points, immunity to grease, entatangle, and other forms of slow, and with elemental shapes and Blinding speed. Just trying to shed some light on some aspects that many people may not be aware of since they haven't played a RDD dragon or druid dragon. First remember the RDD you are fighting is unbuffed unless he has a friend to help him.
Okay I've built a druid dragon and have lvl'd with the RDD's and will instert my $0.02. And I have compared the differences between shifter and druid dragons before on the forums. And there are at least 3 maybe 4 Druid dragons in AO. I haven't built mine yet because I was focusing on getting the other toons I needed to help people level, now I'm remaking my classic toons. It started with Blood Orchid and now Aiea the Chaos is mid level and Lilly should be back soon with Aspen.
"Also a druid or druid/shifter is required to possess natural wisdom ability of 30. These requirements were not implemeted with RDD dragons, which has always left me to ponder why. If RDD dragons build were restricted to Sorc 10/RDD 30 (for example) and a wisdom ability score of 30 (without gear) then a comparison would make more since, but that is not how was implemented, nor am I asking for such a change."
RDD has 2 classes that can make an RDD if you want a "purist" like the druid neither of which wisdom is the basic stat. If this change is made then it should be CHA instead and then you should change the druid and druid/shifter to be pure also with the druid/shifter to have 10/30. That's exactly what some are asking for the RDD. In your discussion you also forget to include that you only need 10 shifter levels to get your dragon with a fear aura. That leaves you 30 caster levels and the ability to buff yourself and deshift and cast as I have seen many do then shift back and go melee. Remember that the fear aura was removed from the pure druid dragon based on the 40 caster levels and the shifter did not have a caster presence. The RDD is already more limited than the druid or shifter in the caster presence (except for the 30 shifter levels). The RDD does not get this flexibility, at most they get 10 caster levels so there is no selfbuffing (including no truesight) or combat presence for it and only one shift per rest and cannot be flexible. I know that when I used to die in while shifted and got raised I loved that I had 2 shifts left for my dragon or I could go to Air Elemental form. I know you do this too Elda. And I know when your dragon isn't working you go to casting or to Air elemental form. Druid dragons also get the highest SR possible short of monks in a pure druid dragon. I and acknowledge that the 30 shifter gets only 10 caster levels to max out it's fear aura but remember it gets 3 shifts and other shapes to help it out.
I know that I had a much easier time leveling my druid dragon since I had access to other shapes and my spells to aid me. Most RDD build are more like leveling my pure rogue and require a party. Druid and Druid/shifter builds also can get access to their dragon long before 40 and even get it in 2 stages. The RDD is limited to getting its dragon at level 40.
My druid dragon builds have so many skill points that I put them in stuff that's considered "fluff" like animal empathy that make leveling it easier and this is pointed out in your comparison. And no you don't get max tumble in it (neither does the RDD ) but you get spellcraft and concentration where spellcraft adds to your saves and concentration lests you cast in combat and avoid taunt. You also get access to epic spells that you can cast while shifted and summons that let you lvl faster as you sit back and cast or help you distract/damage while you shift into a suitable form. The druid and druid/shifter fill different roles. There was a husband and wife that leveled their shifters with 2 of the RDD dragons in AO and me and they were the only ones standing sometimes in the fights we were in.
Elda, you mention that they get access to uncanny dodge but I tested Tru3Fals3's RDD and he falls down to a lvl 5 toon casting grease and rarely "evades" reflex spells or traps. This was before the the reflex was bumped the other day. But that reflex save doesn't help when you can't pass it cuz your reflex is 19 to 21. Also you brought up many class mix in's and yes they are accurate for what you say they can do ( to the best of my knowledge) but you only get 10 levels all pre-epic and you can't have all those benefits. You have to pick the niche you want in it. Do you want the monk benefis of 10 levels or the rogue ones? Not many of the RDD's have stunning fist either. They don't have the wisdom for it so most of them pumped the dex to make it what it fits with, a melee tank. An equivalent would be to nerf your druids wisdom saying that the stuning fist DC was not fair and that you should be limited in your will save since you get to get high fixed STR and DEX and CON and therefore you can pump wisdom to get super high will saves and SF DC and still have very nice FORT and Reflex saves and you can take the same bonus feats to pump them even higher.
Elda, I have witnessed your method for combating the RDD's and it's very effecitve. You make use of the fact that they don't have fom and cast vine mine and creeping doom in the combat area then shift and wait for them. That's how Deadeyes got slaughtered by you. It forced them to wait until someone can buff them up before going one on one with you.
I've really tried to stayout of this for the most part. And Elda, this is not personally to you. You know I love you sis. And I'm not saying that one is better than the other, you can't compare them because they are so different and fill different roles.
Elda go back and look at the UNSHIFTED stats you posted with and open mind and see what they really say. Caster that can have a DC45 Stunning fist, near undispellable buffs, auto quickened spell caster, poison immunity, more skill points, immunity to grease, entatangle, and other forms of slow, and with elemental shapes and Blinding speed. Just trying to shed some light on some aspects that many people may not be aware of since they haven't played a RDD dragon or druid dragon. First remember the RDD you are fighting is unbuffed unless he has a friend to help him.
Aiea the Chaos
Aseneth
Blood Orchid
Ipomoea
Ange au Demon
Acuity
Aseneth
Blood Orchid
Ipomoea
Ange au Demon
Acuity
Re: Dragons
Cahaal
Uncanny dodge has nothing to do with reflex saves, its AC. . . all in all its about pointless. If you let your toon go flat footed its your fault.
Shhhhhhh
Unshifting is instant, reshifting is not (you can run and unshift at the same time). It only takes 1 round to change forms. . . not 2.
Daltian
This shouldnt be a shock but a panther can go LOTS of places a dragon cant! Whats really fun is if there is a transition nearby that has tightly enclosed spaces on the other side, dragons are big enough they get pushed into an "abyss" on top the wall. . . easiest victory ever.
Remember the basis for D&D (which I know is not NWN) is that you need to overcome the challenge, not kill everything in sight. Which is why Ive always suggested having DMs events include LOTS of traps or other searchable things. You fall into "ye olde regular NWN" and you forget about those things.
Uncanny dodge has nothing to do with reflex saves, its AC. . . all in all its about pointless. If you let your toon go flat footed its your fault.
Shhhhhhh
Unshifting is instant, reshifting is not (you can run and unshift at the same time). It only takes 1 round to change forms. . . not 2.
Daltian
This shouldnt be a shock but a panther can go LOTS of places a dragon cant! Whats really fun is if there is a transition nearby that has tightly enclosed spaces on the other side, dragons are big enough they get pushed into an "abyss" on top the wall. . . easiest victory ever.
Remember the basis for D&D (which I know is not NWN) is that you need to overcome the challenge, not kill everything in sight. Which is why Ive always suggested having DMs events include LOTS of traps or other searchable things. You fall into "ye olde regular NWN" and you forget about those things.
Amoenotep wrote:korr is the greatest
Re: Dragons
Eldaquen, I for one appreciate your post. You hit the nail on the head.
His post is not about leveling ability, not about other shifted forms. It's not about all kinds of spells a druid can cast, non of which can be cast while in dragon form. Plus should a druid shift out of dragon form to try to cast while under attack, that often leads to death so more than 1 shift is not relevent. Depending on area a Druid is pretty much suck with staying in dragon for until an area large enough is cleared before they can shift out to rest.
He's not comparing any RDD build to pure class Druids.
He's comparing one Dragon build against another using a common base line. He also speaks more in a tone for PvP rather than PvM. While all his information about feats may not be 100% correct due to personal prefferances, he's pretty damn close.
I enjoyed reading the comparisions.
Just as a reminder, the RDD Dragon for is unque to NS4. In P&P, there is no such thing. This being "our" feature, there will be some ajustments made to it, until it comes into a good balance.
So take notes on what's happening to your RDD - Druid - Druid/Shifter Dragon forms, and report both the pros and cons so devs get a good idea as to what is happening.
It is impossible for us to test build every possible variable, make and build. We have to rely on you guys out there who are playing them. When reporting, mention class and race. That does effect a build.
Thanks
His post is not about leveling ability, not about other shifted forms. It's not about all kinds of spells a druid can cast, non of which can be cast while in dragon form. Plus should a druid shift out of dragon form to try to cast while under attack, that often leads to death so more than 1 shift is not relevent. Depending on area a Druid is pretty much suck with staying in dragon for until an area large enough is cleared before they can shift out to rest.
He's not comparing any RDD build to pure class Druids.
He's comparing one Dragon build against another using a common base line. He also speaks more in a tone for PvP rather than PvM. While all his information about feats may not be 100% correct due to personal prefferances, he's pretty damn close.
I enjoyed reading the comparisions.
Just as a reminder, the RDD Dragon for is unque to NS4. In P&P, there is no such thing. This being "our" feature, there will be some ajustments made to it, until it comes into a good balance.
So take notes on what's happening to your RDD - Druid - Druid/Shifter Dragon forms, and report both the pros and cons so devs get a good idea as to what is happening.
It is impossible for us to test build every possible variable, make and build. We have to rely on you guys out there who are playing them. When reporting, mention class and race. That does effect a build.
Thanks
Mistress Kim
dm_kim999@hotmail.com
*************************************************
Berronar Truesilver - The Revered Mother
dm_kim999@hotmail.com
*************************************************
Berronar Truesilver - The Revered Mother
Re: Dragons
The Ancient Red Dragon form was just meant to be a bit of icing on the cake so to speak...something Sparky (Lathander/Bahamut) thought of a long time ago and later I implemented for fun...but hardly a main feature of the class. There used to be no reason to make a 30 RDD build, and now there is. That said, we do recognize its a bit sad that you don't get the feature till level 40... perhaps we'll work out something with scaling with lesser red dragon forms (red wyrmling, young red dragon, etc.) till you get to the grand daddy red ancient wyrm... no promises, but its a good idea most of us generally agree upon.
Lead NS4 developer
[ Brilhasti ap Tarj ]
[ ...Darkfalz... ]
[ Azchekelon ]
[ Brilhasti ap Tarj ]
[ ...Darkfalz... ]
[ Azchekelon ]