Solars and everything else

[Korr]

Water Gen and Githzerai both have wis bonuses and are playable in SL. So SL has 3 races that can (as easily as most) become planar turners.


As far as BG vs Palli. Dont forget that BG isnt just for a cleric. BG just requires you to be evil (as far as alignment), meaning you can have Bard / BG or Barb / BG or a Monk/BG. Whereas there are no Pally/Bard or Pally/Barbarians... so a straight comparison in that respect hond is just plain ridiculous. BG is far more flexible in builds than a Paladin can ever be... HENCE the skill and feat requirements!

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/583/turnundeadv2.png

once again here is the chart for turning. 25 charisma minimum (with max buffs... easy with cloak + eagle) is a 13 modifier... which is -8 AC/AB/Saves. So its really hard to take much of what you say hond seriously when you are either so obviously wrong with laid out charts or just COMPLETELY ignoring information directly given.

For the record, when I raided MA with my evil turner it took my pure fighter buddy about 3 (active fighting) rounds to lay out the pure barb we faced (who typically can destroy 2-3 toons per his death!). Because -9 AC is worse than the -4 AC you get (-5 including dex) for being prone, if we had an archer it would have been over way sooner.

[Lokey]

Well since you can only be affected by one or the other, turning is self-exploit preventing or whatever.

Regen doesn't impress me much unless it's like 50-100+ per round. Sure, that's a hit, but if you're one hit from dead...

Since we're off topic again Maybe CoT stunner is a little trickier to pull off than I thought (as opposed to using fighter for dipping more imp stun feats). Fromage detector says there's something there, and I have seen 25-30 CoT stunners that were ok. I don't build like shamed, I'm not going to have 50ab/ac and 20 saves to chase some stupid stun dc of 68 or whatever. Also hadn't thought to max detect, I think that's a normal make/break for building something for you Daltian (you know that I really like lots of your builds) and really hard to shoe-horn in.

[Lokey]

So on summons in general when I did the stupid things (some things may have changed, should have wrote these things down):

Didn't want summons to be end-game viable in all situations. It's extra server resources and so on, and the classes that get summons are already top tier without them.

Good summons: more durable than neutral (better ac, protections, healing).
Neutral summons: made these first as baseline. Tend to have more odd tricks.
Evil summons: better attack/damage than neutral.

Granted probably got frustrated around treant anyway...and oh god mino or mord sword.

[Rufio]

Though the solar actually isn't any more durable. Probably even less durable than the balor. In practice, they have less ac than a balor because of the dex cap from the solar's fullplate; the exact same healing abilities as a balor, but not auto-quickened so they are worse healers in practice; fewer hit points; and about equivalent damage reduction to a balor, just 10% more slashing immunity and 15 more fire resist.

[Rufio]

Since we're off topic again Maybe CoT stunner is a little trickier to pull off than I thought (as opposed to using fighter for dipping more imp stun feats). Fromage detector says there's something there, and I have seen 25-30 CoT stunners that were ok. I don't build like shamed, I'm not going to have 50ab/ac and 20 saves to chase some stupid stun dc of 68 or whatever. Also hadn't thought to max detect, I think that's a normal make/break for building something for you Daltian (you know that I really like lots of your builds) and really hard to shoe-horn in.

It is pretty feasible to have a DC 60 stun, 62 ab, 70 ac, and 122 spot on a CoT stunner built as a deep gnome with 25 or 26 CoT levels. Of course saves are good and the CoT dr helps survivablility. The biggest weakness is that 70 ac without a shield means that you can die fast, and they can't do a whole lot of damage to dr builds, but you've got 12 monk levels to run from anything that you can't stun, and you'll eventually kill anything that you can chain stun with divine wrath damage. Those builds are very powerful I'll admit.

[Alkapwn]

Water Gen and Githzerai both have wis bonuses and are playable in SL. So SL has 3 races that can (as easily as most) become planar turners.

Who said they didn't? I just said only Drow can get -10 planar turning with +2 books, In fact any Race can get planar turning with the right books. Just won't be more feat/book expensive. I actually rolled a Svirf with -7 PT, Not that its worth making but anything is possible, Viable and Usable is a different story...

[Shadowalker]

Granted probably got frustrated around treant anyway.

This is my favorite summon, good sight range and talks smack better than JP.

Would love to see an epic version as the mummy dust summon for druids. Only the 35+ druids would get the Terrifying Treant

[Korr]

Water Gen and Githzerai both have wis bonuses and are playable in SL. So SL has 3 races that can (as easily as most) become planar turners.

Who said they didn't? I just said only Drow can get -10 planar turning with +2 books, In fact any Race can get planar turning with the right books. Just won't be more feat/book expensive. I actually rolled a Svirf with -7 PT, Not that its worth making but anything is possible, Viable and Usable is a different story...

You can still make a -10 turner with a start of +2 wisdom, instead of 2 cha. Shift 2 wisdom (feat or level ability) to charisma... because it starts 2 higher.


-7 would mean you have a 10 or 11 charisma mod, which means you didnt even take planar turning feat... which also means SR should apply as bonus to turn resistance. Which should mean you couldnt even turn players with SR... so congrats for rolling a basically completely useless toon??? Dont blame me for it.

[Daltian]

Since we're off topic again Maybe CoT stunner is a little trickier to pull off than I thought (as opposed to using fighter for dipping more imp stun feats). Fromage detector says there's something there, and I have seen 25-30 CoT stunners that were ok. I don't build like shamed, I'm not going to have 50ab/ac and 20 saves to chase some stupid stun dc of 68 or whatever. Also hadn't thought to max detect, I think that's a normal make/break for building something for you Daltian (you know that I really like lots of your builds) and really hard to shoe-horn in.

It is pretty feasible to have a DC 60 stun, 62 ab, 70 ac, and 122 spot on a CoT stunner built as a deep gnome with 25 or 26 CoT levels. Of course saves are good and the CoT dr helps survivablility. The biggest weakness is that 70 ac without a shield means that you can die fast, and they can't do a whole lot of damage to dr builds, but you've got 12 monk levels to run from anything that you can't stun, and you'll eventually kill anything that you can chain stun with divine wrath damage. Those builds are very powerful I'll admit.

Actually, there's even bigger weakness then low ac but I am not revealing it here. Also as far as the stunners go I think that is the strongest one around but it gets strength from stun DC mostly which is gone berserk and will hopefully be fixed.

[Bargeld]

Actually, there's even bigger weakness then low ac but I am not revealing it here.

NEB it

[Alkapwn]

Water Gen and Githzerai both have wis bonuses and are playable in SL. So SL has 3 races that can (as easily as most) become planar turners.

Who said they didn't? I just said only Drow can get -10 planar turning with +2 books, In fact any Race can get planar turning with the right books. Just won't be more feat/book expensive. I actually rolled a Svirf with -7 PT, Not that its worth making but anything is possible, Viable and Usable is a different story...

You can still make a -10 turner with a start of +2 wisdom, instead of 2 cha. Shift 2 wisdom (feat or level ability) to charisma... because it starts 2 higher.


-7 would mean you have a 10 or 11 charisma mod, which means you didnt even take planar turning feat... which also means SR should apply as bonus to turn resistance. Which should mean you couldnt even turn players with SR... so congrats for rolling a basically completely useless toon??? Dont blame me for it.

Sorry my build is -12 ..... missed something somewhere but i've been corrected

[hond]

You can still make a -10 turner with a start of +2 wisdom, instead of 2 cha. Shift 2 wisdom (feat or level ability) to charisma... because it starts 2 higher.


-7 would mean you have a 10 or 11 charisma mod, which means you didnt even take planar turning feat... which also means SR should apply as bonus to turn resistance. Which should mean you couldnt even turn players with SR... so congrats for rolling a basically completely useless toon??? Dont blame me for it.

i'm still compare cleric 35 bg 5 turner with cleric 35 paly 5 (no divine shield)Protection domain version ,max spell craft, concentration discipline

Drow start char after subrace take: Str 12 ,Dext 10,Con 10, int 12, wis 16, Cha 18 (need str,int,wis,cha book +2, and con optional+ a delevel )
Gitz after subrace:Str 12, dext 10,con8,int 10,wis 18,cha16 (took power attack and cleave at creation, before str drop, need int ,wis,cha and Con)
Aasimar: Str 14/12, Dext 8,con10/12,int 10,wis 18,cha 18 (need Cha and Wis)

Pre epic feat: SF conjuration, Gsf conjuration, power attack, cleave, toughness, quicken spell, extend spell, SF disc(human version)
12 Epic feats: ESF conjuration, AQspell I,II and III, planar turning, Dragon knight, ESF disc, epic fort, epic reflex,armor skin, epic wisdom, blindfight

Seems like "only " 3 feats is not a big difference...
- It allow you take SF listen, vigilance and ESF listen (with a INT book)
- WF + imp critical + ewf (+3 AB ,+6 in AO and better range crit)
- lucky, great fort, great reflex (+3 fort/reflex +6 in AO)

As you can note, good aasimar version need 2 books less, than evil one, then will reach minimum of 25 wis/cha with leveling points.
At same time using 4 books, drow/gitz version will need 1 epic feat in order to reach the same score.
Here the importance of those 10 skill point, is that you need 14 int for drow and 12 for gitz, compare with 10 AAsimar...you will have 30 skills points left +15 tumble
Aasimar version can take power attack+divine shield at creation , or go 12str/con and take lucky, great fort

So basically, you are saying the balor summon should be so much stronger because a niche MA turner build needs 2 more feats and 10 skill points then a niche NC turner build. Did I understand you right?

Conclusion: The difference for having a better pet is 2 books, 2 preepic feat, and 1 epic feat..and a toon weaker

As far as BG vs Palli. Dont forget that BG isnt just for a cleric. BG just requires you to be evil (as far as alignment), meaning you can have Bard / BG or Barb / BG or a Monk/BG. Whereas there are no Pally/Bard or Pally/Barbarians... so a straight comparison in that respect hond is just plain ridiculous. BG is far more flexible in builds than a Paladin can ever be... HENCE the skill and feat requirements!

Please i wasn't making any complain/compare BG/paly...just 2 builds who make the "same" thing, but from different side, so stop to say me BG is more flexible than paly, i'm nub, but not at this extremity...

[Daltian]

Actually, there's even bigger weakness then low ac but I am not revealing it here.

NEB it

Not it. As long as one has les then 33 lb of items NEB is ineffective. Sometimes I have more then 33 if I pick an interesting drop from defender NPC's but usually not.

So basically, you are saying the balor summon should be so much stronger because a niche MA turner build needs 2 more feats and 10 skill points then a niche NC turner build. Did I understand you right?

Conclusion: The difference for having a better pet is 2 books, 2 preepic feat, and 1 epic feat...in my opinion soud fair

You understand that dragon knight summons are not exclusive to planar turners?

[hond]

Actually, there's even bigger weakness then low ac but I am not revealing it here.

NEB it

Not it. As long as one has les then 33 lb of items NEB is ineffective. Sometimes I have more then 33 if I pick an interesting drop from defender NPC's but usually not.

So basically, you are saying the balor summon should be so much stronger because a niche MA turner build needs 2 more feats and 10 skill points then a niche NC turner build. Did I understand you right?

Conclusion: The difference for having a better pet is 2 books, 2 preepic feat, and 1 epic feat...in my opinion soud fair

You understand that dragon knight summons are not exclusive to planar turners?

I'm just trying to proove you with that exemple, that good cleric toons are better compared with evil one, for class/race and token, wich will justify their pet are weaker in order to balance at least 1 thing...i can do the same with Cleric imploder, melee cleric or whatever... Clerics dexters for monk race access (for SL) and no monks for Ma...etc etc...

[Daltian]

Even if I agreed that good planar turners are better then evil ones which I don't there is no way all good clerics are better then all evil ones.

Right on top of my mind cleric/pm comes to mind as insanely strong character that ranks among best builds one can make in my opinion.