ECL 3 races

[BlkMamba]

As it really dont matter to me but....
A ECL 3 Dwarf that unique to RK that can take advantage of Dwarven Defender might spark some interest in the stronghold

Considering its the only place its PrC cant have all the goodies, and especially kneen sences rather blows
since DwD in fact gets spot as a prime skill

The Unique to RK would give rk a 2nd ecl 3 without throwing everything out of whack

Take Care
Mamba...

[Ogami]

Anything to help RK to spot is wellcome. Unlike the other factions RK doesn't have an ecl0 race with keen sense. I noticed the spot on dwd is pretty much unused.
If we still want to talk about rk, I'd really love to multiclass bard with dwd, like I've seen elsewhere. It's the only prc you cant multiclass with bard.

[Eldaquen]

MA has no way of making EVERY OTHER subrace into a spell resistance toon *cough* monks *cough*.

MA clerics are able to make any subrace a spell resistance toon.

[Eldaquen]

To clarify:

regarding this post:

I'm not sure why MA is singled out on not having an additional ECL 3. Sure we get more than anyone else, but lets look a bit closer. What is it that makes an ECL 3? Spell resistance last I checked(along with a few other goodies).

which was a response to my post:

If a new dwarven or gnome race was added as ecl 3, alignment restrictions could be used to reduce the number of factions that the new race is allowed in. At presnt AO, TC, NC, and SL only have access to 3 ecl 3 races, whereas MA has access to 4. Keeping a new ECL race out of MA would be more important than out of AO, TC, NC, and SL....

which I wrote in response to this:

I fail to see why it's necessary, though. Any ECL 3 race added to RK would be theoretically open to the other factions except AO.

My post was simply an attempt to show that it is possible to add a new race and not have that new race not end up in every other faction. In an attempt to support adding a new race expressively to RK, even if ended up in another faction or 2.

I was not trying to offend MA player base or single them out. It was just an example.

This thread is all over the map. After reading it I think it is safe to say the community does not want a new subrace in RK.

[Dazrield]

MA has no way of making EVERY OTHER subrace into a spell resistance toon *cough* monks *cough*.

MA clerics are able to make any subrace a spell resistance toon.

Yep, I know I can get good SR with 35-40 levels of cleric. But then we wouldn't need to use the word 'toon', you can just call it a cleric. Thats the thing about monks.. you can get by with about 26 levels if you are feat savy and still come out with decent SR. 14 levels is alot of room to play with.. opposed to the 5 i'd have with cleric.

This thread is all over the map. After reading it I think it is safe to say the community does not want a new subrace in RK.

I'm not opposed to RK having a new subrace go into testing, not at all the thing I took issue with.

[Rufio]

I'm not totally opposed to a new subrace if RK really thinks they need it, but I feel like it goes against the "fewer races, more classes" spirit of the faction.

The only problem with the RK subrace selection I see right now is that the only people with a real incentive to build things in RK without using the best possible subrace are guilded players. More casual or non-affiliated players can just build in whatever faction they choose that gives them the best stuff for the specific build they want.

[Elagneros]

One of the dilemnas that plagues this game (not just this server) is that building and min/maxing is very in-depth and requires skill and practice. The staff tries to balance out factions and races so that the BEST things available to each are all comparable and tries to keep certain abilities from giving anyone an obvious advantage. But you also end up with the ability to make a really crappy toon if you aren't careful.

It's because the game is D&D based, and over the long run, it's not good for PvP. It's always been the fighters start strong and mages start weak, and end up switching as the higher levels are gained. In the 3e rules set NWN uses, this is magnified, and it only gets worse into epic levels. Other classes fall into various places along the strong-weak spectrum, but the general consensus is that wizards, clerics, and druids built with just standard core abilities are always the most powerful classes in the game. Now some of it isn't quite the same in NWN since it doesn't have some stuff from the tabletop rules, and it's based on 3.0 rather than 3.5 rules which mix things up even more. But even here, the three have always been some of the strongest classes, even with spell nerfing. In any case, it's one of the reasons I'm not overly fond of the PvP aspects, because it's not balanced, and short of outright haks I think there's little the dev team can do to bring things into some semblance of balance.

quote="Ogami"]Anything to help RK to spot is wellcome. Unlike the other factions RK doesn't have an ecl0 race with keen sense. I noticed the spot on dwd is pretty much unused.[/quote]

I used Spot on my cleric/dwd build. Whether it can really be used to its fullest potential, I don't know, but stealth is used so much on this server that I wouldn't want to go without it.

If we still want to talk about rk, I'd really love to multiclass bard with dwd, like I've seen elsewhere. It's the only prc you cant multiclass with bard.

It's the alignment restrictions. You can't adjust alignment here, which I see as a good thing. Builds with manipulated alignment to min/max abilities can be horribly overpowered, just imagine how strong something like a paladin/bard could be. Same thing with bard/dwd, it can self buff, then boost its combat abilities with a bard song and defensive stance. NWN doesn't fully implement some of the alignment change penalties on classes that exist in full rules, so these builds are much stronger than they should be.

[Rufio]

But even here, the three have always been some of the strongest classes, even with spell nerfing. In any case, it's one of the reasons I'm not overly fond of the PvP aspects, because it's not balanced, and short of outright haks I think there's little the dev team can do to bring things into some semblance of balance.

All things considered, I think the devs have done a really nice job balancing pvp on the server. It is hard because there are so many different combinations of classes and abilities that it only takes one overlooked class or ability combination to break things. I'd go as far to say that pvp is much more balanced than pvm here. High level PvM ends up revolving around parties of clerics, pure bards, DWD/PM/Construct tanks, and dedicated damage dealers like pure fighters, pure barbarians, and pure paladins. I enjoy building for pvp because I can create more versatile builds instead of just going all out in one category to fill a party niche.

[Eldaquen]

Dazrield I do not understand the point you're trying to make. You gave a statement that was very broad and absolute which appeared false, and left up to interpetation. Do you actually believe or don't believe that MA is unable to make builds (or toons or characters or whatever you want to call them) with SR on any other subrace? Not my claim was yours. I merely stated that in fact MA is able to make a non-ecl 3 race with SR, since you claimed that MA has NO WAY to do it.

Can not believe we are splitting hairs about what a TOON is. Thought it was generally accepted that the term was interchangable with character, since it is shorter to type.

I attempted to clarify what my example was meant to convey. I believe I attempted to clarify that I did not mean to offend anyone. It was a misunderstanding over trying to show that aligments could be used to control where a race is accessible from. It was just an example not a desire. If there is something lacking in MA then start a thread explaining what that is and reasons why a change should be made. There is so much information to consider and ponder in NWN that difficult to consider everything all at once and keep posts comprehensible. I was focused on 1 aspect in order to dispell another's statement which claimed an absolute which in my opinion was false. Sorry if that example wasn't all inclusive of every possible outcome.

After going thru the change log and finding all the items changed that benefited the RK faction, reviewing all the nerfs to other factions that benefited RK faction, after reading others' response here, being told that making a favorable suggestion which benefits a faction I don't play was an insult, and being reminded that bigbies is able to 400 points of damage to a single target: I no longer believe adding an new ECL 3 subrace is warrented. In RK or any other faction. Thank you for dispelling this idea.

I hope the Devs just focus on working on AO jobs and forget this thread ever exsisted. I hope by saying the Dev's continue to work on what they said was their priorirty does not offend any AO players since jobs would benift AO and I don't play there. If so I apologize.

Wizards for TC - there a suggestion that beneftis only the faction I play, I hope your all happy. Oh darn that would benefit NC too since TC is their ally oops might have offended NC - I cant win.

[Alkapwn]

But even here, the three have always been some of the strongest classes, even with spell nerfing. In any case, it's one of the reasons I'm not overly fond of the PvP aspects, because it's not balanced, and short of outright haks I think there's little the dev team can do to bring things into some semblance of balance.

All things considered, I think the devs have done a really nice job balancing pvp on the server. It is hard because there are so many different combinations of classes and abilities that it only takes one overlooked class or ability combination to break things. I'd go as far to say that pvp is much more balanced than pvm here. High level PvM ends up revolving around parties of clerics, pure bards, DWD/PM/Construct tanks, and dedicated damage dealers like pure fighters, pure barbarians, and pure paladins. I enjoy building for pvp because I can create more versatile builds instead of just going all out in one category to fill a party niche.

I agree whole heartedly with Rufio here. I don't think i can think of one build that can't be countered at least one build in an opposing faction.

@Elagneros- I'm not sure what experiences you've had with the pvp you've actually had. I don't recall ever fighting any of your toons unless your logging Mamba's toons. Its all about having the right toon vs the right adversaries . It's not so cut and dry as to just plainly say its unbalanced. PvP takes skill and the learning curve is pretty high. It takes time, gear, a broad understanding of builds, a pool of lvl40's to pick from, and actual player and toon knowlege (e.g. "Thats Alka on Phalanx he's gonna tank and heal so we should ...tactic B")
There is very few builds(or pvp skill) that can handle any circumstances when your enemies outnumber. The balance is in the players and the pvp trending. Logistics on paper may seem overwhelmingly unbalanced but the actual play and tactic of any build is much more complicated then simple number crunching and min/maxing. Thats the key challenge and what makes pvp so entertaining and whats kept coming back for 6+ years.

[Dazrield]

Dazrield I do not understand the point you're trying to make. You gave a statement that was very broad and absolute which appeared false, and left up to interpetation. Do you actually believe or don't believe that MA is unable to make builds (or toons or characters or whatever you want to call them) with SR on any other subrace? Not my claim was yours. I merely stated that in fact MA is able to make a non-ecl 3 race with SR, since you claimed that MA has NO WAY to do it.

In your proposal you'd suggested giving the ECL3 to NC, yet not MA. I was simply pointing out that we're just as class shorted as NC(and although we've got more more ECL3's than they, they have a very nice subrace that's specifically designed for them and the ability to use their favored classes of said subraces more). I've not disputed the RK thing at all(which I think is what you made the thread for).. so unless your real motivation is to get a new ECL 3 into NC.. I really have no idea why we're still debating.

And I did say we don't have a way of making a non-ecl 3 race with SR.. and I stand by that. I mean.. I guess you could say any mage with premonition a DR class too, but they are both duration effects. Monk and ECL 3 can be lowered for a time, yet do not run out.

p.s. I'm not offended, and don't know why anyone would be. This is a forum for ideas and stuff, debate is healthy for ideas, sometimes they are strengthened by it, sometimes entirely new ideas altogether are sparked for someone by some debate.

[mining]

p.s. I'm not offended, and don't know why anyone would be. This is a forum for ideas and stuff, debate is healthy for ideas, sometimes they are strengthened by it, sometimes entirely new ideas altogether are sparked for someone by some debate.

Look through some of the old nerf threads

[Shamedmonkey]

Gentlemen, I think we should revive the EMA thread here.

Just kidding. God, that thread sucked.

[Lokey]

It's because the game is D&D based, and over the long run, it's not good for PvP. It's always been the fighters start strong and mages start weak, and end up switching as the higher levels are gained.

I'd disagree, casters start pretty strong then attain deity-hood when they hit level 4 and 5 spells

It depends on what very low characters need to do. Humanoid: sleep, scare, and so on have a good chance of winning the battle, it's just that casters can't do that AND have significant defenses yet. They have to wait til level 2 and their first polymorph line spell for that.

The things that are a problem for casters early tend to be a problem for everything early like the damn crab and ethereal things (allips or some of the other horrible nasty undead).

[mining]

It's because the game is D&D based, and over the long run, it's not good for PvP. It's always been the fighters start strong and mages start weak, and end up switching as the higher levels are gained.

I'd disagree, casters start pretty strong then attain deity-hood when they hit level 4 and 5 spells

It depends on what very low characters need to do. Humanoid: sleep, scare, and so on have a good chance of winning the battle, it's just that casters can't do that AND have significant defenses yet. They have to wait til level 2 and their first polymorph line spell for that.

The things that are a problem for casters early tend to be a problem for everything early like the damn crab and ethereal things (allips or some of the other horrible nasty undead).

Man, I wish truenamers didn't suck. I love truenamers so much.


Also, casters are weak at one because average 2.5 + con HP . Crossbow's do more d6 than they have HP, and their AC probably isn't much over 10...