Amount of PK-ing tolerated?

[AuTEC]

Getting back to the original topic... Think about the scope and focus of the NS4 mod...

We have different factions, with different backgrounds and different goals. Having interfaction PvP is an added dimension to Neversummer.

To that end... The mod was built around PvP being "endorsed"

I think its really important to focus on how to make this interfaction roleplaying/fighting as interesting and fun as possible for all those involved.

Griefing and murdering of lower level "helpless" players is a problem and the Dev team is working on possible ways to fix this problem without neutralizing the benefits of having this additional dimension of interfaction PvP.

If you're going to complain about PvP and PKing, then please include with your complaint ideas on how to fix the problem you are having without hurting the advantages of having a mod which advocates PvP.

So basically...

1) Identify the problem

2) Present an argument why the problem needs to be addressed

3) Propose a solution

4) Show how your solution will not negatively impact the goals of the module.


Thanks!!!

-AuTEC

[powerferret]

yay AuTEC!

[bongoblue]

How about a simple script ?

It allows low level player characters to opt out of PvP, and not be subject to PK.

If the low level character then attacks, or summons, and that attacks, an enemy character, the low level protection is gone for that character. They can, with DM help, opt back in after a certain amount of game time.

The script expires when a player character reaches a certain level, say a combined level of 5.

[DM Clang]

I am going to voice my opinion on char balance.

This is "MY" opinion and not the Dev team or anyone elses.

Nowhere, and I mean nowhere!; books, movies, medieval wargames, computer games based in same genre.....

NOWHERE

Is there ever a match for the mage. Lvl vs Lvl, experience vs experience. No comparison. Mages are SUPPOSED to me the 'armageddon' types.

All other types are either support for them, or crushed under them.

The balance is supposed to be that it takes forever to get that kind of power.

Maybe make it harder for the mage classes to get up to that level is best.
Pay the price, for the final prize!

[Æ]

Regardless of events in fantasy literature (though in many TSR setting novels fighter heros were often matches for the mages... take lord soth, in dragonlance and then in ravenloft, for instance, or the Amnesian Hero who escaped the mazes of the Lady of Pain herself in the Pages Of Pain Planescape novel or Sorak the Tribe of One in the Darksun novels facing down a draco lich) we must not forget that this is a game, not a novel or film, and as a former longtime large-scale paper-and-dice DM, I know the importance of balanced power between players in a game (in my campaigns, all PC classes had their strengths and weaknesses, to be sure, but they all had comparable power and, in some way or another, had equal chance of defeating most enemies), especially when they are meant to compete against eachother in that game... it's simply good and fair sportsmanship. A game and it's rules should be fair for all players concerned. If things remain as unbalanced as they are, everyone's going to get fed up and be a mage or cleric and there will be no other classes in Neversummer... and I really don't think the Devs want it to be that boring (point in case: every fighter in neversummer 3 specialized in [censored] sword and used a YDB, not because they liked how it developed their characters, but because it was the only weapon of it's kind available and any fighter that wanted to be able to compete with the rest had to have one.... the mage will soon become the YDB of NS4 if you're not careful)

The point of a mage being physically weak as they are in most fantasy settings, is that, all though he has massive destructive power and is therefore the first one the party will want to take down, the party could distract him, draw the fire of his spells, while the rogue sneaks in or the cavalier fighter could charge in and strike a blow, taking out the "big gun" or at least disrupting his spell. In most great lich battles, the lich falls rather easily, after severely hurting the party with his spells, but then he keeps posessing another one of his skeleton servants and coming back, until the party finds his phylactery in the lair and destroys it... but that's almost onother topic. My point, yes mages are supposed to weild greater destructive power than the melee classes, but their also supposed to be physically vulnerable and depend on the fighters to defend them from melee... not their armor and buffs which remove that dependancy and also creat a dependancy for the melee'ers, who would now need a caster buffing them to stand a chance

There's no reason why, one on one, two characters of equal level and different class shouldn't prove to be a match for eachother... The mage doesn't nescessarily have MORE power at the same level, but a different kind of power... Keep in mind, we're not talking about your commone soldier, we're speaking of superhuman, godly warriors with supernatural physical strength and prowess (many fighters can lift a half ton or more and SHOULD be able to take alot of beating)

[DM Clang]

AE i do NOT need a long post to respond . . .

The mere fact that you seem to point out there are tactics to be used vs a mage by a "Group" says to me High level mages are not to be taken 1 vs 1.

I am merely suggesting that for that power, instead of nerfing, we think of an alternative.

[Alexiagold]

There's no reason why, one on one, two characters of equal level and different class shouldn't prove to be a match for eachother... The mage doesn't nescessarily have MORE power at the same level, but a different kind of power... Keep in mind, we're not talking about your commone soldier, we're speaking of superhuman, godly warriors with supernatural physical strength and prowess (many fighters can lift a half ton or more and SHOULD be able to take alot of beating)

Said balance is impossible to achieve. That's right, impossible. The reason is that there will always always be a better build, and the better build will benefit from everything we give your gimped WM Rapier user to balance him against class X, resulting in the better build now way overpowering class X. Since you can't follow that, lemme try this way, using an example taken from the other games you likely play at recess with your play dates, DnD is like rock, paper, sciccors, the rock always loses to the paper, and if you let the rock win, then who can the paper ever beat? No one. So now the paper is gimped. So no one would chose anything but the rock, because the rock beats everything. Kinda makes it pointless no? But I understand you are the rock and you don't want to die anymore, but rather than make a better rock, or use scissors to kill that paper (mage) you want your rock beefed till it can beat the paper sometimes, but you always beat the scissors already. I hope this lesson in preschool balance has finally taught you why everyone else ignores you now.

[Mokihana]

Alexia,
that is a great analogy. mind if i use it sometimes?

sometimes you just have to refactor things down to their simplest parts.

dnd will never be balanced no matter how much you try. there is so many factors and randomness that occurs. bioware tried to capture that with their engine but knew where to draw the line in the sand.

lets face it. pnp. take a wizard, they are week in the start, and only a few survive. with a respawn button how do you reproduce the darwinism inherent in this design? you cant. now fighters start out strong, killing thing 3 or 4 times thier cr. but what happens when they get old? thier saves are terible and they die. oh wait we have a respawn button.

in real life pnp, a dm can constantly shift and bend rules to provide this "so called" balance. notice if you play low fantasy dnd, most chars never get above 5 let alone 10. "oh sorry you forgot to rest the last 3 days your exhausted and hungry and now have a -10 to do anything, and you only heal 1 pt per 8 hours of rest"

a computer program is like this: (you need bob the byte to go to the store to buy bread)

open door;
walk out;
turn right at mailbox;
walk straight 10 blocks;
turn right at market;
open door in front of you;
go to aisle 3;
pickup wonder bread;
go to checkout;
pay for bread;
ect.

now what does the computer do when the store is closed??
nothing its against the rules of its reality
what would a dm do running this with a char?
"sorry bob the store is closed and the door locked, the street is empty what would you like to do?"

just my opinion

[TGPO]

Some people have made the transition to the new build requirements better than others it seems. One on one it is now easier for any class to defeat a mage than it ever was in NS3. Its time to start getting creative with your builds and looking at the options available to you.

Being a DM lets me look at every aspect of your characters, and let me tell you a good majority of the character sheets I look at are very obviously NS3 builds. Its a new world now, and there are going to be what I consider some really off the wall builds that will perform wonderfully.

Mages can get owned so easily by a tank of equal or even lesser level its scary. The problem is it doesnt appear that many of the players have taken a good hard look at the options available to them. Instead of looking for ways to get the devs to balance things a different way, try first looking for the ways they have already balanced it. Its no secret, cause the information you need has been available to you for months now already.

[JesterOI]

One idea would be instead of spending skill points on tumble as a warrior, spend those on spellcraft instead.
Every 5 points is +1 saves vs spells.
Now as to whether that is 5 hard points or if +skill items can be used, I don't know.

[JesterOI]

Just made a new paladin.

At level 1 he has +9fort +7reflex +7will saves vs spells. His str is weak, only 10, but that can be increased.

[Æ]

alexia mail coming }: )

[Bob]

Now as to whether that is 5 hard points or if +skill items can be used, I don't know.

Yep - it goes by ranks (the hard points).

[KillingSheep]

Drink lots of beer - thats my life solution, suddenly NS4 death becomes amusing as does pushing old people down stairs.

[Æ]

*cough cough*

--passes it to sheep--

smok-um peace pipe }: )