Solars and everything else

[Daltian]

Yes, no Aasamir in MA/SL.

You cant throw all NC/TC strengths in one barrel and make one super toon with all pros and no cons. One toon wont be both cot/pally, have stunning fist, great disc, great saves, crit immunity, high AC, divine might damage, have PDK present and so on.

7 out of 8 isn't bad Probably good enough ac to have functional crit immunity if you try, or get most of that on a PDK. That's not to say every faction doesn't have some pretty damn awesome things to make, just that SL has fewer exclusive top tier for current flavors of month. Also it's not like SL can't field functionally that same build either.

7 out of 8 is not true.

Stunning fist excludes 7 of those abilities, cot/pally excludes 3 of them, PDK excludes at least 4 of them so no way it's 7 out of 8.

One toon wont be both cot/pally, have stunning fist, great disc, great saves, crit immunity, high AC, divine might damage, have PDK present and so on.

Yeah a pally/cot wouldn't have all that. But a dex bard clc CoT would, except stun fist. Instead they would have haste, umd for mords, crit immunity (per the scrolling of shapechange as claimed), and c/c, NC tokens for additional divine damage and full spot. And $10 says it would be drow. PDK presence can't be guaranteed by anyone, so adding it to this list means nothing.

dex bard/clc/cot doesn't have stunning fist, crit immunity and does not automatically have PDK present, you should know by now that TC/NC doesn't really have multiloggers so presence of PDK is not guaranteed at all. Putting PDK in all our calculations is like putting mage with bigs debuffs and evil turner in yours. Also, PDK buff is once in 30 min.
Also, bard/clc/cot doesn't have ab and number of attacks that monk/pala/cot versions have so its not really a juggernaut of pain. Also it's saves are good but not that epic.

[mining]

Personally I'm ok with CoT being so damn good because I've seen other builds that are arguably better out of NC - and in general, if people want to ditch on a build that's worse than others which are based on bio stats and divine feats, I'm ok with those people . (though I'll admit, double damage vs evil is harsh).
The thing is, CoT is a very, very easy target. It's a hyper-simple build to make, all you need to do is chuck on as many books as you can get (for typical cleric/monk/CoT or what have you).

So, some not very outrageous generalizations:

Expect about 68 AB and 77 AC for a well built WM build out of NC, with the full array of +2s. The AB in particular is a solid 12 off the cap.
For CoT, expect around 70 AB and 80ish AC for a shield using one, or ~81AC and 69 AB from a monkey CoT. These stats are basically capped.

So in general you sacrifice a little AB and AC self-buffed for, e.g. WM crits and a lot more party buffed AB.
The thing is, said CoT build achieves semi-god like status solo, while the WM is trailing behind, but well and truly exceeds the CoT buffed up.

Probably also worth remembering - a lot of the CoT magic is that it uses divine feats; non divine CoTs are decidedly less impressive in terms of damage and AC or AB - throw divine feats on most builds, e.g. an RDD battlecleric and you can push yourself to 70 AB 78 AC with a little effort.

[Rufio]

Lowering wrath ab would actually only be a small nerf because of how easily CoT's can far exceed the +20 ab cap. I've proposed this before: +3 ab at level 5 with +1 ab every 5 levels after that, reaching +8 ab at 30 CoT. You could still easily cap your ab, you just wouldn't be able to do it effortlessly all with one buff. 30 CoT with a +8 weapon and blinding would hit +20 ab with just prayer. That way CoTs would actually benefiet from some party buffs, or they could self-buff and not have totally undispellable ab. I've just always thought it to be a little silly to give 30 CoT +13 ab, because that means they are permanently at +20 ab and have no need for any ab buffs.

[Rufio]

Back on the summon topic: A balor's capped ab is only 1 less than the BG summon's capped ab. Of course it is much easier to hit that cap on the BG summon because the summon's weapon has a higher enhancement bonus and the BG's summon bonus algorythm can reach higher bonuses than conjuration focuses on the balor, but the balor has more HP, nice spell resist, self-healing, spot, and the summoner has more build flexibility. The BG summon could probably use some love or the BG's themselves need to be better to compete with dedicated Balor summoners. BG summon stats can be seen here: www.nsrealm.com/ns4wiki/index.php?title=Summon_Fiend

[Korr]

Save a few feats if your aasimar and get +2 wis & cha.

Are you suggesting this for MASL turner? I don't understand why this is being said in relation to the rest of your paragraph.

No it was just in general. Though what I proposed was definently possible to do in MA/SL, for turning in general.

[Bargeld]

Now I am thoroughly confused... Daltian is quoting me and repeating my exact sentiments about PDK presence, yet seems to be disagreeing with me? And then suggesting that something along the lines of 2 clc, 20 bard and 18 CoT wouldnt get full attacks because a monk attack progression is the only viable way of making a melee cot? Add then that it wouldn't have 'great' saves (well maybe not compared to other things in NC), but compared to the general population, it would... I mean if +9 saves vs all isn't 'great' I don't know what server you are referring to.

I will concede that I glossed over the crit immune part, but the point is that you used the example as an amazing top-tier unachievable thing and I gave a pretty close suggestion that DID.

And then I questioned korr's suggestion about using aasimar in SL and his response is that the rest of it is 'definitely possible to do in MA/SL'? But that in both NC and AO, they can use a race that is obviously superior for this type of build.

Noc is right, this is waaay past ridiculousness.

I'm going to go check balor's max ab and will be back with results shortly.

[Bargeld]

So here's the balor ab stats, the only thing not tested was planar race for the caster, which *should* be +3 'cappable' ab... I will summarize that in the calculations.

45 base ab on sheet, summoned in battle. In battle log, it shows 44.
With Epic conj, sheet shows 54, log shows 53. This is +6 ab from focus, +3 from str.
GMW adds +1, bringing sheet to 55, log to 54.
Haste adds nothing to sheet, keeping at 55, but log correctly shows the 55 now. (Haste seems to do this regardless of when it is applied)
AVA adds nothing to sheet, showing 55, but log shows +3 bringing it to 58.

So right now we are at 45 base +6 focus, +1 haste, +1 GMW, +3 ava, totaling +11.

Add to this until you cap:
+4 song
+1 additional from fang possible (scrollable adds nothing, it requires epic trans focus in order to gain the additional +1)
+2 awaken (only if scrollable)
+3 planar caster
This will cap +20 with 1 to spare.

Add +6 from 12 str max (only with +4 awaken and also +5 normal str, capping it at +6)

Once all is said and done, we are looking at a balor's MAX ab as:
44 base + 20 ab buffs + 6 str = 70 ab.

So in MASL, we can't use druid or ranger with epic focuses, so no fang, but that's the extra +1 capped.
Also, unless awaken is scrollable, we lose +3, 1 from max 11 str bonus, and 2 from the spell's ab. This drops the max to 67 in MASL.

Only AORK can get 70 ab balor with a planar evil druid or ranger with both epic trans and epic conj.

[Rufio]

The balor's sword is +4 and counts towards the cap, so the balor starts 16 away from the ab cap already. The most you can get is 66 ab.

The same goes for the solar, it has a +4 sword. The slaad also has a +4 claw and +5 bite that count towards the ab caps. Any faction can reach those caps as well with transumation focuses and greater magic fang scrolls + haste + prayer/ava

Trust me. I am 100% sure on this, I have done loads of summon testing. The max ab for a Balor is 66, max for a slaad is 59, max for a solar is 58. (for comparison, max for a mummy king is 66 ab, the max for a black devil is 67 ab, and the max for a death's accompilace is a whopping 83 ab. The black devil and death's accompilace are much easier to cap than the other summons as well.).

[Bargeld]

You are correct, i forgot that base +4 weapon. I can also confirm your 67 max on the BG fiend. I also put the base at 45 in one calculation, technically (with the weapon +4 considered) it should be 40.

So 40 + 20 + 6 and MASL can do that! Hurrah! /sarcasm

Know what I learned from these 8 pages? To prove anything solidly, you need numbers. Talk is cheap. If you have said in the beginning those stats, I don't think there would have been as much discussion.

PS, yes, i'm a quick and tidy edit machine!

[Rufio]

For reference, these are the summons I have stated out and tested thoroghly:

All of the stats given are with no focuses, no buffs, and the summon's default weapons (refer to the summons guide for reference on undead summon natural weapons)

Dragon Knight (Solar, Balor, Death Slaad): http://www.nsrealm.com/ns4wiki/index.ph ... gon_Knight
Mummy Dust (Mummy King): http://www.nsrealm.com/ns4wiki/index.ph ... Mummy_Dust
Summon Fiend (Black Devil only): http://www.nsrealm.com/ns4wiki/index.ph ... mmon_Fiend
Pale Master Summon Greater Undead (Master Lich and Death's Accompilace only): http://www.nsrealm.com/ns4wiki/index.ph ... ter_Undead
Gate (Planetar, Black Slaad, Pit Fiend): http://www.nsrealm.com/ns4wiki/index.php?title=Gate
Summon Creature IX (Elder Air, Fire, Water, and Earth Elementals): http://www.nsrealm.com/ns4wiki/index.ph ... reature_IX
Mordenkainen's Sword (Helmed Horror): http://www.nsrealm.com/ns4wiki/index.ph ... %27s_Sword

I also have a few others on my talk page that I am waiting on posting until I have tested their neutral and evil counterparts, like the Greater Planar Binding Astral Deva: http://www.nsrealm.com/ns4wiki/index.ph ... stral_Deva
and Lesser Planar Binding Lantern Archon: http://www.nsrealm.com/ns4wiki/index.ph ... ern_Archon

[Rufio]

To prove anything solidly, you need numbers. Talk is cheap. If you have said in the beginning those stats, I don't think there would have been as much discussion.

I posted the link to the wiki page with all the dragon knight summon stats in my very first post before sumarizing the findings. I guess no one read that page. I was avoiding posting the capped ab scores because most casters will never reach those caps without full focuses, a planar race, and a bard around (and cleric if you are a mage). Also, we got distracted with other stuff.


Oh, and a point that I realized after posting all those summon stats. The mummy dust summon can even get 66 ab at level 40, and most people think that thing sucks (granted, since its hit die scale with your character level, it is a ton weaker than dragon knight summons at lower levels. It also has a bad crit range and only 3 attacks)

[Korr]

I will have to test it again but I was sure I got my BG summon to 68 or 69 AB.

As far as the turning thing earlier, I was just stating that it is possible to get the -10 everyone is talking about. Regardless of faction, you just need either +2 wis or +2 cha from race and a book on both (then a lot of epic feats lol!)


/e :Tested @ 67 max AB for BG summon (musta seen it flank or something before)

[Alkapwn]

As far as the turning thing earlier, I was just stating that it is possible to get the -10 everyone is talking about. Regardless of faction, you just need either +2 wis or +2 cha from race and a book on both (then a lot of epic feats lol!)

Only Drow can do it with 2 books, Pure cleric with GreatCha,GreatWis VI+Planar Turning, In SL/MA

Yah it's not hard to figure out it's just plain stupid is all With 6 x +4's it could be interesting though but still not even close to worth it. I've had an evil Planar turner for a long time and used it lots. It's like building a mildly iritating grenade that only effects some people toons mildly, And if you know it's coming (playerlist) your probably wont log an outsider although really how hard is it to kill a 49ac cleric with 400 hps unless he sancs out at 70dc O.O.

PvM it's awesome though. Powerlevel my DC casters with +8cr to level np. 900xp an instant kill anyone? Not to mention what it'll do to the New Gith zone. Unless ofcourse they have 44cr then oh well

[Daltian]

Now I am thoroughly confused... Daltian is quoting me and repeating my exact sentiments about PDK presence, yet seems to be disagreeing with me? And then suggesting that something along the lines of 2 clc, 20 bard and 18 CoT wouldnt get full attacks because a monk attack progression is the only viable way of making a melee cot? Add then that it wouldn't have 'great' saves (well maybe not compared to other things in NC), but compared to the general population, it would... I mean if +9 saves vs all isn't 'great' I don't know what server you are referring to.

I will concede that I glossed over the crit immune part, but the point is that you used the example as an amazing top-tier unachievable thing and I gave a pretty close suggestion that DID.

And then I questioned korr's suggestion about using aasimar in SL and his response is that the rest of it is 'definitely possible to do in MA/SL'? But that in both NC and AO, they can use a race that is obviously superior for this type of build.

Noc is right, this is waaay past ridiculousness.

I'm going to go check balor's max ab and will be back with results shortly.

I apologize, I misquoted your post, I wanted to quote one where you said you posted a build that did all the things I posted when it obviously isn't true. You yourself agreed cot isn't crit immune and pally cot isn't a stunner. So you posted a build that almost did all I said. (almost all =/= all)
But to be honest its minor thing and I don't disagree with you in general Bargeld. Almost all you say is quite unbiased and I was more annoyed by the fact that people throw CoT at every issue people post then by what you said. You were just in the way.
I did read first post Rufio posted about solars and saw the gaping difference in stats so seing people bring in CoT issue annoyed me greatly.

Also Alka, saying that evil turer is not as good as a good one (silly sentence, I know) because people just bring non outsider toon when they fight one is kind of silly considering it goes the same way for good turners. It's not like good turner can turn drow.

[Daltian]

Just out of curiosity. Does one become immune to evil turning if he is turned by good turner and vice versa?