Linux, my dragon sux now, fix it!

[Rogue2x]

firstly, you can't use dragon breath in imp expertise, secondly, when you mention Imp Expertise, you can't forget to mention the -10ab that comes with it. It's not all peaches-and-cream all-of-a-sudden I have 10 more AC. Imp Expertise also drops when you take any actions other than attacking.

third, my numbers are all correct. There's no reason to make anything up, the Devs and DMs can see my toon and my stats at any time, as can anyone who fights against me in the log. Korr did a very bad thing being the first to post stats; he gave you all a very very false impression of what a 30rdd Dragon character sheet actually looks like: He posted these rediculous numbers without explaining that it took 3 different toons to buff it up. ANY toon with all those buffs will have similar numbers.

also MLoki, now you're starting to see my point. Maybe it's not the AC that needed a change if every other toon can have the same AC. Maybe it is "all that other stuff". What would have been wrong with lowering the DR a little? or lowering the melee dmg a little? How about lowering them both a little?

[Bargeld]

I'm not sure what +7 you're talking about. Unfortunately I know about all the char-sheet discrepancies, so I am using the combat log for the ab, and it's a +54 with my Blinding Speed.

Also, we're in the game right now testing, and it seems that Spellcraft isn't added to the reflex save against Grease. The best we can get our Reflex save is +25 with a mage and bard doing the buffing, no buffs from the dragon toon. Against Primarch's Grease DC of 34, the dragon needs to roll 9 or higher to save, he'll fail the save half the time.

Grease is a lvl 1 spell, so when it's a higher lvl spell the dragon needs to save against, he doesn't have a chance.

And it needs to be mentioned again, Grease is a lvl 1 spell......my lvl 40 Dragon toon shouldn't be failing a lvl 1 spell half the time.

Since Grease is an area spell, you're going to have to spend at least 1 round in it to get away, so you're going to have to make 2 saves; if the dragon fails the save half the time, 1 out of every 2 saves, statistically EVERY time the dragon steps onto a puddle of grease, he'll fall.

It has been stated that there is a +20 to the claw attack that doesn't count to the ab cap, nor does it show in the charsheet. Based on that, you mean that your 54 ab in the combat log is a 34 base +20 claw?

Use the Arcane Amulet from IoD. Immunity to lvl 1 spells.

After all this discussion, it seems to me that the people who claim to be effected the most are those who probably have not had a toon nerfed on them before. This may be why some of us in the peanut gallery appear less than sympathetic, because many of us already have, or have had in he past, lvl 35-40 toons that have lost their appeal due to a nerf and have sat in our list of character as a defunct toon for the rest of eternity.

So is the Dragon unplayable now? You tell me; what am I to do with a supposed melee tank with 53ab/65ac, and a +19 reflex save, with no ability to buff myself. You'd laugh at me if I told you I was planning on rolling up a pure melee tank with those stats and no other abilities (hips, magic, etc).

Yep, mule it, distribute your gear to other toons and start a new one knowing what you do now. The longer you resist it, the sooner the other guys who have already started rebuilding will beat you to 40.

(if you want my real-world example, try a 16 fght - 17 wiz - 7 wm focused in greatsword for balor shapechange as your first toon after the server wipe. According to my build progression, i didn't get the shapechange spell till lvl 39. Once I hit 39 I was so excited to shapechange... All my focus was in greatsword for that balor. That's when I found out that, with all the other shifter changes that were occuring at the time, they decided to give balor a bastardsword... poof, useless toon. Know what I did? I got that last lvl for 40 and then built another toon and stored the story in my pocket for a day like today.)

[Lokey]

+10 claw, counts toward ab cap (character sheet will show higher than you have except that that 10 does not show since creature weapon ab isn't shown at all). Took me an afternoon of wandering around with my 85+ac druid burninating things to see that imp expertise should switch off for dragon breath.

I think all Balors and dragons should have 10 ac, hate that jump animation

I don't have much sympathy for monk/rdd because druid/optionally shifter can't do that and has to burn two feats for stunning fist (stat reqs aren't onerous) and can't get monk attack progression and can't get evasion. Then I don't like dragon form at level 40 only either (wouldn't be hard, have the lesser druid version they use until level 35 ready to roll).

[Tru3Fals3]

some things you need to note:

the NC token true seeing is just like the spell..see invis +spot skill...so..not that uber awesome.

RDD's, once you shift that dragon becomes your new char....regardless of whatever stats you want to pour into your 40 lvls of char...your STR, DEX, CON stats are auto set when you shift. this also sets your saves.

put rogue into rdd for reflex..doesn't matter, it gets replaced. it happens for any shape any char shifts to. main stats get auto replaced...

RDD dragons got a nerf in the bigger departments because they have so many smaller departments that work for them better. deal with it for now...we probably aren't done with most of it.

curious, i know the stats are set and therefore your saves are mostly set but does this mean that save feats will not apply in dragon form? or are they still worth taking? as i said, my original build has none so i have no way of testing this.

on a sidenote: bargeld, you are aware you could've used a shapechange scroll to try your build out the second you took a wizard lvl and where above lvl 14 right?

[mgrjebbo]

Ok Ok so I really have no idea about anything and am just filling space with my post's apparently.... Thank you Tep for showing me the error of my ways.

[Tru3Fals3]

also, i noticed while testing some things that spellcraft does not apply to the save for grease or storm of vengence, is this on purpose or some kind of bug?

[Amoenotep]

i think certain spells are specific for no spellcraft vs saves...grease is one, SoV might be another..not sure which other ones fall into that category.

[Tru3Fals3]

ah ok, wouldnt happen to know if there was a list somewhere for my own personal reference? is it a mod for this server or a game wide thing? if its a game wide thing i can just search at the bioware website.

[MrAsimov]

I believe spellcraft is not added to the saves of most spells with a duration. This is a bioware thing and not a server thing.

[Tru3Fals3]

now that you mention it i have noticed several other duration spells also dont apply spellcraft, ty for clearing that up.

[Korr]

Primarch youre reallying going to bring up jobs, when at most a job will give 4 skill points, and then 1 stats and a couple of use items? Lets NOT forget that AO has a job token that lets you make bombs that destroy the INFINITE spiders in Lolths room. Not powerfull enough for you? Lets make AOs dream come true, strip them of THAT job too!!! I dont have a single toon that cant get +12 ability bonus without a job, most of my toons havent even DONE their jobs. Just a select few that add a bit of an edge to a specific toon (pure fighter stunner from TC gets a non-potion max to dex/wis and a lil damage, MA bard gets an extra spell slot, etc). If 4 skill points to some skills, 2 abilities magically modified by 1, and a token make the difference in a fight youre doing something wrong I would bet. It was annoying to read a post where you say "AO doesnt whine about jobs" in the same post you WHINE ABOUT jobs, as well the recently bumped "AO Jobs" thread on the forum. Want jobs? Move factions!

And yes truefalse, on the nwn wikia it says (I think under spellcraft page) that SC bonuses arent applied to duration spells like grease and SoV (not sure if its more specific or gives a more comprehensive list though).

[Rogue2x]

I don't know where your hostility is coming from Korr, but I'd like to see someone from AO exert their all-powerful BOMB somewhere other than Lolth's room....how many times have you been in Lolth's room total? in all your time on NS4? Power is only good if you can use it, and one enemy in one room in all the server doesn't make that item powerful.

Besides, this isn't the job thread, if you want to be hostile about someone talking about AO jobs, do it there.

I registered for these boards in 2003, and have 8 posts.....I'm not a whiner, I'm not a complainer, and you've known me for awhile now; that insinuation is insulting. I showed A LOT of math in my posts to explain what I'm saying, which is what the devs were asking for. If Jebbo and you both believe i'm making that up, that's your business.

Also, isn't the Druid ab progression the same thing as the Monk ab progression? 3/4, so the ab potential is the same in that respect, right? Also, the mnk/sorc/rdd has to take 3 different classes pre-epic with +0 attack at 1st lvl, so in a way, isn't the AB potential LESS for a mnk/rdd?

[Amoenotep]

monk is a 3/4...but monk has its very own ab progression in order to get its 5 unarmed attacks/round. it only counts as 3/4 when holding a weapon.

[Rogue2x]

According my NWN manual, which I'm amazed I still have, the mnk ab progression for the extra unarmed attack is the same 3/4 for the highest bab up to a +15 at lvl 20. The alteration is in the rest of the attacks, which decrease at -3 intervals instead of the -5 of druid.

So, the highest BAB potential of the mnk is going to be equal to that of the druid.

Then add in the 2 other classes, sorc and rdd, and the mnk/sorc/rdd still has 3 classes giving a +0 pre-epic, whereas the druid-dragon can take 20 druid lvls pre-epic, so the mnk/rdd will have 2 less ab, right?

Druid can still take the epic prowess feat, which is the only one that transfers through to form anyway, so I don't understand why mnk/rdd is supposed to have a much higher natural ab.

[Amoenotep]

yeah...been drinking


same ab progression, you get the -3/attack instead of the -5 and you gain the xtra aattacks that no one else does...

ie.
lvl 6 2/round
lvl 10 3/round
lvl 14 4/round
lvl 18 5/round