General balancing problems

[Billiard]

Hmm on NS3 I played a lot of tanks. Now with NS4 I am trying out casters as well. I think alot of what is happening concerns inertia and not wanted to deal with so much change all at once. Plus leveling is so slow, and item restrictions make things a challenge all of the time. Once everyone gets up the learning curve I suspect there will be bigger things to complain about.

[JesterOI]

Weapon focus is garbage unless you need it as a requirement for something.
If I had to choose between improved crit and focus, I would take improved crit everytime.

[Billiard]

Well down the road dual weaps specializations are good as was mentioned before, and if you continue to take fighter levels you can get dual improved crit too I suppose - got to do something with them feats.

[JesterOI]

You gotta do something with those feats is right, that's why you make sure you have atleast 13 dex and 13 int as a fighter, tons of good feats to take then.

[Dyson]

Yes, this does soak up a lot of feats if you want imp crit, sup wep focus etc but it does allow the wm to have a bit more versatility. I think you can also get away with just 2 if you take something like morningstar which does slash/piercing? and warhammer or mace etc for bludgeoning.

I used to think that combo weapons that do 2 types of damage were the way to go but actually they are the worst thing you could do. If you use a star and fight a mob that has 10 vs piercing OR blunt, it gets blocked.

Tested tonight with a Rapier and a Halberd and a mob with piercing immune only soaked both equally.

Something that has been bugging me is the sheer amount of mobs with DR vs slashing. I know, I know, use a different weapon. I do use a wide variety, but why kill all the slashing weapons like this? Personally I like using longswords. When my 37 str warrior often does 10 damage with Bralk's Might (Halberd) but 25 damage with the Arm of Bourne (mace) then something is wrong.

For sheer effectiveness it looks like blunt is the way to go in NS4, which is too bad.

[JesterOI]

Slashing weapons are usually the more commonly used type.
The thing with blunt weapons is they usually have low crit range and never break x2 crit except for the warhammer.
Look at the double weapons for example:
Double Sword - 19-20 / x2
Double Axe - 20 / x3
Dire Mace - 20 / x2
All 3 do 1d8/1d8 damage.

Now going by the above info only, which weapon are you not going to choose? The dire mace obviously.

[Acce]

If the resistances are here to stay, I think that one key balancing issue could be to change the equipment so that character has to choose either between damage reduction/resist OR AC on a single piece of equipment and NOT get both.

This way characters with high reduction will be easier to hit/crit (hit more often) and characters with high AC will feel more pain when hit.

Considering casters can get pretty high AC normaly, atleast they won't have the extra damage reduction this way.


Regarding clerics having it all.... nothing new under the sun... the servers that I've seen balancing up clerics decently, virtually nerferd them back to the stoneage....

The problem with clerics is that they simply get it all with a very limited amount of drawbacks. One of the reasons is that only a few classes can dispell them effeciently.

Another reason for caster classes being so powerfull is that when casters get time to prepare for battle, they ARE supposed to be at their peak of their power. The problem is that in NWN, casters can be pretty well prepared most of the time.

Atleast one of the benefits of being a cleric have been made available to all classes with the possibility of relatively cheap healing kits/potions

It's nice that the intention of the mod is to make it so that ppl should group up in order as nobody can 'handle it all'. My only comment on this is that I REALLY hope this will apply to ALL classes! (yes, including mages/clerics)

[/list]

[Acce]

"Deleted double post"

[Daltian]

What are you? Lvl 3 wiz? A tank can kill a wiz up to lvl 9 maybe. After that, only in dreams, and some very lucky case. A tank killing a caster buffed only with improved invis and premonition is really a dream. The second he is up, and he will get up soon, you die!

You just need to change your tactics. Get em before he's buffed or after it's worn off. Get em unawares by being sneaky. Try using a group. Can you wade into a battle playing to the opponents strengths? No - that's just stupid. Does this mean you need to tweak your build to take this stuff into account? Yes. Old NS3 builds that people are trying won't work. Try a build - if it works stick with it. If not, try again. I have made mage and a dozen different melee builds. I have finally come across a couple combos that I think are pretty decent. It's hard to start over each time, but you learn and get better. Just like it was in NS3 before people kind of knew all the max builds.

So basicly, a fighter needs to wait for a caster for his buffs to wear off? How does he do that? By dieing 20 times and running right backs, and after 20th death he might actually find mage unbuffed? You think mage will just stand still while you stay next to him waiting for his buffs to wear off. You say you played a caster.
Did someone actually manage to do that to you? If he did, then ROTFLMAO!
Oh, be sneeky, wait for him to rest. OK, then next time, I sneak at my astonishing half walk speed, behind the wizard. Follow him around, like 3 maps (BTW wizard is hasted, so basicly going 4 times my speed). And then when I see him rest.
Kaboom, sneak attack. 1 landed, 12 dmg. Damn, got to change my waepon. Wait, halfling rogues can use only piercing melee waepons. Wth, get the sling. In mean time, wizard casts invisibility, extended expeditious retreat. BYE BYE!
After 1 minute (that much time took the wizard to run away invis and rest/rebuff).

Rogue: LA, la, la, la I am fighting. What a nice exp.
Wizard: Otana-fori-kjafa
Rogue: pressing F1 (HIPS)
Banshee: Screeeeeeeeeeem
Rogue: Kabooom! Pieces of flash and blood exploding (Max violence setting)

[LoZen]

Daltian, don't mean to be an [censored] here, but my advice would be don't play an inexperienced halfling rogue if you want to be able to take down mages in PvP. They are good in other areas though And with the proper adjustments to the build, they should be able to sneakily dispatch a mage with little to no effort. I've seen it happen. Spellcraft, Improved Evasion and UMD can do wonders for rogue vs. mage fights. If you have SD for the HiPS then it's even easier, If that mage doesn't have points invested in spot/listen, then he's as good as dead.

And rogues serve other functions in NS4. I just recently got to a locked door in the bandit HQ that i couldnt open. I was with a cleric. We kicked [censored] all the way there, but at the end, we could go no farther without someone who could Open Locks. If you want to be able to kill mages, then build your character so that he has a better chance of doing that. But If you're playing a rogue, there are other ways to get the return on your gaming dollar. If there had been a rogue standing outside that door offering to pick the lock for 100k, I would have given it to him. And he could have tagged along and soaked up as much sneak attack XP as he wanted.

[LoZen]

Just another point here, my one and only weakness is my Will saves. If I party up with a caster, even a simple magic circle vs. alignment (read: immunity to mind-affecting spells, lvl 3 spell) and i'm pretty much invincible. You have to learn to use things like that to your advantage. Party, party, party. I think that aspect alone would solve 95% of peoples' problems.

[Daltian]

Daltian, don't mean to be an [censored] here, but my advice would be don't play an inexperienced halfling rogue if you want to be able to take down mages in PvP. They are good in other areas though And with the proper adjustments to the build, they should be able to sneakily dispatch a mage with little to no effort. I've seen it happen. Spellcraft, Improved Evasion and UMD can do wonders for rogue vs. mage fights. If you have SD for the HiPS then it's even easier, If that mage doesn't have points invested in spot/listen, then he's as good as dead.

And rogues serve other functions in NS4. I just recently got to a locked door in the bandit HQ that i couldnt open. I was with a cleric. We kicked [censored] all the way there, but at the end, we could go no farther without someone who could Open Locks. If you want to be able to kill mages, then build your character so that he has a better chance of doing that. But If you're playing a rogue, there are other ways to get the return on your gaming dollar. If there had been a rogue standing outside that door offering to pick the lock for 100k, I would have given it to him. And he could have tagged along and soaked up as much sneak attack XP as he wanted.

First.
Don't call someone inexperienced if you don't know who you are talking to.

Second.
Rogue is not a char that serves to open locks. That is bullshit! Cleric with trickery domain and few rogue lvls is better at that anyway. And every cleric has trickery!

Third.
Spellcraft doesn't boost your saves enough. I still need to roll 19-20 to save vs mind and death spells.

Fourth.
Mage that uses evadable spells vs. rogue is idiot. I don't take idiots in my typical encounter demonstrations.

Fifth.
I gave up to 750k to people just because they needed to buy more heals from vendor, so that we can continue hunting. I don't need your lousy 100k.

Eight.
UMD is nice. But what I use with UMD? Scrolls. Sure I found some scrolls. Do i use up 4 scrolls every time i encounter a mage? And I have no means of getting more scrolls, but building a wiz and cleric, and use it as scriber. No one will ever sell scrolls. Exp is to much valuable. And mages that can make scrolls I need, rarelly have money problems!

[RunarSterk]

there are advantages and disadvantages to each class. just because your fighter cant do everything a mage can do doesnt mean jack squat: make a mage for heavens sake!

What are the mages disadvantages? Low HP only counts as a disadvantage if you can be injured. The few times I've found a caster willing to let me into his group and I've been able to watch him in a fight, he rarely gets touched due to very high AC, or simply avoiding contact at all by using a summons. Damage restistance on hits that do get through AC makes the wounds pretty minor. I don't see a downside at all to playing a caster. I think that it's clearly the way to go, and will probably switch over to one soon enough. If the only downside is knockdown.. well, that's not much of a downside. Knockdown needs to hit (at a -4 attack) to work, plus get through discipline.

Do we really want NS4 to be just casters? Where will your fun pvp vs. melee types come from then? Clerics?

[Daltian]

If you have SD for the HiPS then it's even easier, If that mage doesn't have points invested in spot/listen, then he's as good as dead.

If you think that mage loses to HIPS rogue. Then you really are major newb. You have no idea how to play a mage.

I give you two ways for a sorc to dispose of rogue.

1st.
Cast evards black tentacles around you. Wait. When you see "your name here" damages Someone (4) .... Cast Banshe on area where tentacles are. Rogue is dead. If not. Cast 5 more times. If you didn't suceed even then. Hmmmm. Cast invisibility, haste. Go away. How can you die in that situation? Of course, if all you know to do is cast firebals, then I am sorry. You really will die!

2nd.
Summon balor. Balor has true seing. (not nerfed one, he can see hidden creatures)
Balor casts implosion on rogue. Rogue dies.

3rd.

Wait till rogue goes out of hips and cast horrid on area you belive rogue will be at time of casting. Remember. Rogue is very slow when hidden. He'll probably die!

4th.

Evards and IGMS. Same as banshee method. Pretty much same effect.


Oups. I gave you 4 ways to do it. There are plenty more. Didn't even use mind spells.

[Kelin]

Ok now i am pissed off. I know this is not NS3. And just to tell you, i stopped play NS3 'cause it was way too easy. I don't want my fighter to kill everything on one blow. I don't even want Dev Crit.
I am not even a soloer. I SCREAM and repeat SCREAM for a party everytime everywere. I rarely find a group. Why? 'cause 80% of players are clerics or wizards or sorcerors and DON'T NEED A TANK. Why take a tank that with the current resistance on gear and mobs can do like 5 damage when a summon does 6 time that damage?
And YES i use different weapons. And YES i have different weapon specs. And YES i have all the feats you can imagine, including ambidexterity, imp 2 weap fight, imp disarm, imp kd, called shot, expertise, power attack. But there isn't much point in using them when you CAN'T DAMAGE what you are fighting. Even when you have 7 different weapons of any kind and with any damage type on your inv, including multiple damage weapons.
Still all the high level mobs i saw have immunity and resistance to EVERY kind of damage. Ok, giants skin can be tought, but not SO tought to resist EVERYTHING, considering that most of them are NAKED.
Let's talk of casters. Sorcs have low ac? What kind of sorc do you play?
A tank can win a caster? How? Being unable to damage and hit him, even if he knockdown him, he will die with 1 spell. A death spell. No matter how con you have, if you aren't a paladin/CoT you will never have high enough fortitude to save easily from a death spell.
Sneak up to a caster? How?
Waiting for his buffs to drop? All casters i saw just rest, buff, and kill, and when their buffs drops they rest again, buff again, and kill again.
Stoneskin only soak 10 dmg. True. Then there is gear immunity and resistance. And if you are a cleric you can switch your shields and get immunity and resistance to every kind of damage.
I don't want to have the best char that can kill everyone, everything, moving just a finger (or i would have been playing a sorc ), i just would like some more balance.

And anyway before flaming me on giving out an opinion think that this is a BETA and we are supposed to be TESTING it and give FEEDBACK.
And this is my feedback on how things go for a tank.

Oh, anyway, there is a reason why giants can't be disarmed? Even if i manage to go past their discipline they still keep their weapons. Hardcoded?