darkfire and greater magic weapon

[JesterOI]

I'm on crack, Kelin was right.

Take a cleric with Travel and Trickery Domains.

Bless +1
Aid +1
Prayer +1
Divine Favour +5
Greater Magic Weapon +5
Bull Strength +2

That's +15 to hit with buffs alone and without Divine Power.

Prayer +1
Divine Favour +5
Bull Strength +2
Greater Magic Weapon +5
Darkflame +14

And you got +27 Damage.

Divine Power + Haste = 2 extra attacks (If they still stack)

Divine Vestments or whatever the spell is gives your armor +5 (can't you also use it on your shield and get a second +5?)
Then Improved Invisibility from Trickery Domain.
Then the ac bonus from Haste.

That's some heavy duty defense there.

With the above info I don't see why anyone would want to play a fighter or other pure warrior class. Fighter maybe to get Master Artisan in a tradeskill.

[Bariagan]

I'm on crack, Kelin was right.

Bless +1
Aid +1
Prayer +1
Divine Favour +5
Greater Magic Weapon +5
Bull Strength +2

That's +15 to hit with buffs alone and without Divine Power.

Prayer +1
Divine Favour +5
Bull Strength +2
Greater Magic Weapon +5
Darkflame +14

And you got +27 Damage.

Divine Power + Haste = 2 extra attacks (If they still stack)

Divine Vestments or whatever the spell is gives your armor +5 (can't you also use it on your shield and get a second +5?)
Then Improved Invisibility from Trickery Domain.
.

It takes, however, 9-10 spells to make a cleric that strong. Furthermore, the earliest level to possibly cast them all is level 9, and if you want the maximum bonus from things like Greater Magic Weapon and Vetments, you are talking level 15, and level 20 if you want the max dark fire bonus. I don't thnk those bonuses are that bad when you consider the levels required.

Additionally, many of those spells have a duration of 1 round/level. This means they run out very quickly, oftentimes in the middle of a fight, especially at lower levels. Thus the cleric will be very powerful in a fight, but probably only the first one. If they want to buff up again, it wil take several minutes to rest and recast the spells, which can be hard to do in some areas. Also in the time it takes them to do this a non caster class will be able to kill several more creatures in PVM, and in PVP if they can evade the cleric for even a half a minute his buffs will start to fade.

Looking at numbers alone, it is certainly daunting, but similar comparisons can be made with a fighter's attacks per round and damage output, a rogue's sneak attack, or a bard's song. The important detail is that the spell bonuses are not sustainable, they may help a cleric win one or two combats, but will quickly fade.

That being said, I have had difficulty damaging things with my cleric in melee, some of the monsters I fight have pretty good resists and immunities against bludgeoning. Fighters have an advantage in being able to switch damage types, but it might be nice to see less in the way of immunities and resists for all, both creatures and players.

[djshale]

I did some testing and I found out that darkfire works (and probably always has) worked with magical weapons and the spell greater magic weapon... thats what i get for trusting bioware's spell descriptions.

As for what this spell means for balance... Im still not touching that debate. When it comes to PvP i have a very limited experience, when it comes to PvM, its a huge world and still much to see, I'll reserve judgement till then. Personally Id prefer the devs concentrate on bugs, lag and the quest, then maybe when NS4 is up and running the balance.

[Kelin]

It takes, however, 9-10 spells to make a cleric that strong. Furthermore, the earliest level to possibly cast them all is level 9, and if you want the maximum bonus from things like Greater Magic Weapon and Vetments, you are talking level 15, and level 20 if you want the max dark fire bonus. I don't thnk those bonuses are that bad when you consider the levels required.

Additionally, many of those spells have a duration of 1 round/level. This means they run out very quickly, oftentimes in the middle of a fight, especially at lower levels. Thus the cleric will be very powerful in a fight, but probably only the first one. If they want to buff up again, it wil take several minutes to rest and recast the spells, which can be hard to do in some areas. Also in the time it takes them to do this a non caster class will be able to kill several more creatures in PVM, and in PVP if they can evade the cleric for even a half a minute his buffs will start to fade.

Looking at numbers alone, it is certainly daunting, but similar comparisons can be made with a fighter's attacks per round and damage output, a rogue's sneak attack, or a bard's song. The important detail is that the spell bonuses are not sustainable, they may help a cleric win one or two combats, but will quickly fade.

That being said, I have had difficulty damaging things with my cleric in melee, some of the monsters I fight have pretty good resists and immunities against bludgeoning. Fighters have an advantage in being able to switch damage types, but it might be nice to see less in the way of immunities and resists for all, both creatures and players.

First, you know what gear is avaible to a lvl 15 fighter? He can have only +2 weapons. Wile a cleric can have +5. Then darkfire doesn't fade so quickly and gives HUGE boost to damage. And Vestment and Greater Magic weapon don't fade so quickly either. A fighter has only 1 attack more than a pure cleric unbuffed. Same if the cleric is buffed, or 1 less if the cleric has travel domain too. No more attack if the unbuffed cleric is build with some paladin/blackguard/cot/fighter levels in. Maybe SOME of the buffs fade quickly, still you can cast them before attacking something (or someone) and kill it easily. There isn't even a big advantage on hps, a cleric can cast endurance and get as much hps as a fighter.
And even if spells fade you can rest and cast again. And clerics can switch weapons too.
Stop trying to make it seem like there is some balance between clerics and fighters, doesn't work too well.....

As for grouping with a cleric to make him buff you... hard to do, so far i founded relly FEW clerics willing to party. Wonder why.

[SmurfZG]

It takes, however, 9-10 spells to make a cleric that strong. Furthermore, the earliest level to possibly cast them all is level 9, and if you want the maximum bonus from things like Greater Magic Weapon and Vetments, you are talking level 15, and level 20 if you want the max dark fire bonus. I don't thnk those bonuses are that bad when you consider the levels required.

Additionally, many of those spells have a duration of 1 round/level. This means they run out very quickly, oftentimes in the middle of a fight, especially at lower levels. Thus the cleric will be very powerful in a fight, but probably only the first one. If they want to buff up again, it wil take several minutes to rest and recast the spells, which can be hard to do in some areas. Also in the time it takes them to do this a non caster class will be able to kill several more creatures in PVM, and in PVP if they can evade the cleric for even a half a minute his buffs will start to fade.

Looking at numbers alone, it is certainly daunting, but similar comparisons can be made with a fighter's attacks per round and damage output, a rogue's sneak attack, or a bard's song. The important detail is that the spell bonuses are not sustainable, they may help a cleric win one or two combats, but will quickly fade.

That being said, I have had difficulty damaging things with my cleric in melee, some of the monsters I fight have pretty good resists and immunities against bludgeoning. Fighters have an advantage in being able to switch damage types, but it might be nice to see less in the way of immunities and resists for all, both creatures and players.

First, you know what gear is avaible to a lvl 15 fighter? He can have only +2 weapons. Wile a cleric can have +5. Then darkfire doesn't fade so quickly and gives HUGE boost to damage. And Vestment and Greater Magic weapon don't fade so quickly either. A fighter has only 1 attack more than a pure cleric unbuffed. Same if the cleric is buffed, or 1 less if the cleric has travel domain too. No more attack if the unbuffed cleric is build with some paladin/blackguard/cot/fighter levels in. Maybe SOME of the buffs fade quickly, still you can cast them before attacking something (or someone) and kill it easily. There isn't even a big advantage on hps, a cleric can cast endurance and get as much hps as a fighter.
And even if spells fade you can rest and cast again. And clerics can switch weapons too.
Stop trying to make it seem like there is some balance between clerics and fighters, doesn't work too well.....

As for grouping with a cleric to make him buff you... hard to do, so far i founded relly FEW clerics willing to party. Wonder why.

And on top of that, clerics can use the same gear as fighters. Which means that the +27 damage jester was talking about is 27 dmg MORE than the fighter classes

[Thanos]

There is really no point in playing a fighter. Clerics kick [censored]. They have better ac, do more damage and have a great spell selection including the most powerfull summons in the game. They are so superior to any other class. Take a cleric with 1 level of pally and you have no weakness.

[dond]

There is really no point in playing a fighter. Clerics kick [censored]. They have better ac, do more damage and have a great spell selection including the most powerfull summons in the game. They are so superior to any other class. Take a cleric with 1 level of pally and you have no weakness.

sneak attack

clerics are insane in 3.0 though. they were even more insane with the old harm lol

[Thanos]

There is really no point in playing a fighter. Clerics kick [censored]. They have better ac, do more damage and have a great spell selection including the most powerfull summons in the game. They are so superior to any other class. Take a cleric with 1 level of pally and you have no weakness.

sneak attack

clerics are insane in 3.0 though. they were even more insane with the old harm lol

haha ya just take 1 level of SD then you can hide and heal and never worry about being killed.

[ATI]

Clerics are better fighters, its sad, but true. There need to be some fighter specific items that clearly give fighters a distinguished role above the simple "generic starting class" description.

[Lothy]

pure clerics suck! but cleric is a good class to combine with fighter classes.

clerics have some drawbacks tho.

1. you lose 1 AB per 4 levels of cleric if taken before lvl 20
2. you need alot of base WISDOM to cast spells, at least 16 WIS for NS4
3. divine power is gimped in NS4 and full cleric buff takes a long time.

still, the benifits of cleric are great. i think every major battle platform should have at least 15 levels of cleric installed in its hull.

[Lothy]

[quote="ATI"]Clerics are better fighters, its sad, but true. There need to be some fighter specific items that clearly give fighters a distinguished role above the simple "generic starting class" description.[/quote]

not true.

cleric class is best utilized when combined with fighter classes.

fighter class is good if you need alot of feats. Epic weapon specialization is a fighter-only feat (+6 damage).

Thanos is right, 1 lvl of SD can be a great addition to a melee cleric/fighter.

Taking 1 level of pally is the best for sorceror/bard. Not only for saves bonuses, but possibly for discipline skill. Cleric/Pally has a weakness, he doesnt get tumble class skill, which means -4AC thus +20% vulnrability to melee attacks.

[EvanFallen]

Is greater magic weapon working again? I tried it out and never got any + ab. Must be a bug with the enchantment.

[djshale]

I dont know about how it worked before but Greater Magic Weapon works now, its just not always obvious. If the enchantment of your weapon is already equal or greater than what Greater Magic Weapon (lets call it GMW for now) would give you then there is no effect, i.e. any +5 weapon makes GMW useless.

The other problem is the enchantment bug, or maybe its not a bug. Some wepons like longsword and greatsword when it has +x enchantment gets +x ab and +x physical damage. Most weapons like short swords, axes, hammers, etc. get +x ab and +x damage type of weapon. i.e. a +1 short sword would get +1 ab and +1 pierce, but in NS4 even the lowest magical shortsword (masterwork iron) already has +1d4 pierce. Since in NWN same damage types on a weapon does not stack, only the highest modifier gets applied.

Im sure most people already knows about this. This is more for the benefit of people like me who arent used to seeing this type of properties on their weapons. If you came straight from the OC I dont think you would have encountered this problem. But if you came from NS3 you probably already know since I hear there were lots of different damage types on the weapons.

FYI, the weapons that I tested and saw uses +physical damage are: longsword, greatsword, halberd, bastardsword, katana(?), sythe(?)... this is all from memory though, so dont take my word for it, especially those with (?)

[Kelin]

I hope it's not and it remains this way, i hate that a cleric has a +5 WEAPON when a fighter must go around with a +2 TOY.

Anyway do a Cleric/CoT and you have same number of attacks of a fighter, almost same feats, high saves, SPELLS. And buffed like twice the ab of a fighter.

The only way to balance this is make fighter restricted gear that actually DOES damage. Enchanted and Imbued weapons have nice look. But their damage sucks on everything that has even a small resistance.
And so far all the weapon that can be used by fighter can be used by clerics too, with the difference that clerics can buff them.

In a low magic enviroment clerics are simply too powerfull in everything, make useless to do any other class but wizards and sorceror actually.

I mean, ok, monks have nice immunities, saves, spell resistance and ac, but does that help them when they face an enraged cleric with 50 ab buffed, 60 ac, a summon that can kill them alone, and like 40 damage each hit? And this at level 20, if not less.

Or do being a rogue with huge sneaks help? Maybe the first hit, if the cleric doesn't notice you. Then he casts Destruction and the rogue dies.

And a fighter... well is like a lvl 20 fighter fighting against something with the stats of a level 40 fighter, that is using his same gear and that over that has spells.

Clerics are funny, my next char will be a cleric.....

[Agent Shiny]

clerics down right OWNZ.
combine them with a mage.

you have two unstoppable team.
then put 2 rogues. omg =D ownage.