Shadow Dancer Nerf?

[Daltian]

how many pure fighters are going to survive against that mage? how many pure barbarians are going to survive that mage? how many pure bards are going to survive that mage?

honestly too many people are thinking of rogues as a pure class and i'm sorry to tell you this, but it's not happening. some classes in NWN simply just cannot reach the PAR pure, fighter and rogue are by far the most versitile for multi-classing, they give good results for a commitment of perhaps 4 levels, or 8 levels, or whatever. why not make a fighter rogue that has improved knockdown and sneaks? you stalk the mage till he rests, and gut him good. honestly some classes WILL not compete 1 on 1 head on head combat with the mage, sorry. that's the mages domain. not many will compete with the fighter standing next to him not even hidden. this is the nature of the class system.

rogues are sneaks, sneaks. you pick your time to strike, you've got to be more tactful in how you hunt people. wait for them to sleep, wait for thier spells to run out, wait for them to be busy with a tough monster, then creap up, improved knockdown crippling strike them down and kill them off in 1 round, then run for it

that is how i would play a rogue if i made one. Shadow Dancer without HiPS is basically as useful as a harper scout, they get no sneak attack, they get very little. and since you cannot take HiPS out without banning the class, i see no other option.

Kill them off in 1 round? Are you delusional. You cant sneak kill people in 5 rounds, even less in 1. Without hips. You would simply get 1 or 2 sucesfull sneaks in ( 3 attacks with bad ab, you rarely suceed with more then 1). After that, without hips, you either get knocked down and beaten to death (you know how many hit points a rogue has, do you). Or you get death spell casted on you. End of story.

And your story about snaking behind a mage and waiting for him to rest is not possible. Do you know how slow a rogue is while sneaking? If you think you can follow a mage. Think again.

[Æ]

A Bioware build with 1 level of shadowdancer, for whatever it's worth:

http://nwn.bioware.com/underdark/character_roguearcher.html

[TC-GTRF]

While the feat may be a bit overpowered, let's be realistic about it.

Here's what you have to pay for one level of Shadowdancer:

23!!! skill ranks

2 Feats

+1 BAB

Min DEX 13

Give up the ability to take any other Prestige Class

This seems like an investment that could be considered reasonable for what you get.

BTW, the Sorcerer/Paladin/SD that everyone is talking about above would not get that level of SD until their 18th level and would only be available to three of the seven factions. Considering that this part of the module is only designed to go up to about level 28 or so, that doesn't seem to have a very high utilty.

Personally, anyone who takes just one level of SD is missing out on a whole bunch of things. Try playing a Rogue 8/SD 8/ Fighter 4. My guess is that they could do a pretty good number on the Sorcerer/Paladin/SD mix.


TC

[Thanos]

While the feat may be a bit overpowered, let's be realistic about it.

Here's what you have to pay for one level of Shadowdancer:

23!!! skill ranks

2 Feats

+1 BAB

Min DEX 13

Give up the ability to take any other Prestige Class

This seems like an investment that could be considered reasonable for what you get.

BTW, the Sorcerer/Paladin/SD that everyone is talking about above would not get that level of SD until their 18th level and would only be available to three of the seven factions. Considering that this part of the module is only designed to go up to about level 28 or so, that doesn't seem to have a very high utilty.

Personally, anyone who takes just one level of SD is missing out on a whole bunch of things. Try playing a Rogue 8/SD 8/ Fighter 4. My guess is that they could do a pretty good number on the Sorcerer/Paladin/SD mix.


TC

The hips problem is a bug/exploit as it is now. DD has said so on the bug board. If it worked properly 1 try per round instead of as many tries as you can click this probably wouldn't be an issue. Radpro stated the game is supposed to be PvP and group oriented. With hips as its now its almost impossible to kill or even hit some combinations of classes with SD and on top of that HIPS allows you to solo any encounter in the game.

The requirements for a sorc/pal/sd are nothing. One you get that SD level you just increased your power 10x. If you choose SD you need no other PRC. You have the best prc class in the game as is.

Its up to the developers in the end. If they want a world full of shadowdancers then thats their prerogative. SD will just be the prc that every class will need if you wants to survive pvp encounters. Like haste/immunity items were in NS3. A must have.

I have no problem making a sorc/pal/sd. I am sure I will have lots of company.

[Dallas17]

sneaking somone you WILL get them flat footed (in which most classes lose almost all thier AC, if you have uncanny you retain your dex, that's all.. still lose your deflection, and dodge. a rogue coming outta sneaking with a improved knockdown would indeed devistate somone in 1 round. if you would like i can show you, and i'm talking non-epic here.. epic i can get a rogue scorin 300+ damage in a split second and then hidden again, and at epic your not going to find me without a hell of alot of listen and spot skill. as for sneaking on somone resting, currently if they're hostile it's true. you can't, this needs to be fixed, if your not aware of hostiles nearby you SHOULD be able to rest, HotU screwed this up, but it can be fixed (i've seen it done). and a mage is dead in seconds if you sneak up and knockdown him. seconds. 10d6 sneak + 2d6 physical + 1d4 physical + 2d6 elemental, your doing roughly 44 damage a hit before any resists on his gear absorb it. now 44 may not seem like alot, but this will be 5 sneaks because of the knockdown. 44x5 = 220 damage. in 1 round.

if anyone here actually doubts the power of the Shadow dancer, please just arrange a time with me, i'll host a small mod, pull out a SD with basic NS gear, and we'll see if you last more than 3 rounds from the word go. it's been proven in far too many places that the SD class is WAY too exploitive a class to be permitted, especially in a PvP setting. there is no respectable PvP server out there that hasn't banned this class, that alone should tell you how bad it is. just because people havn't learned how to truely abuse it yet does not mean they won't, especially if i keep posting 'how to abuse' guides like this.

[JesterOI]

It's simple then. Take the time restrictions on PP or Taunt and apply them to stealth mode. Set it so that you can get 1 attempt then have to wait one round to try again, if you have any shadow dancer levels.

[Æ]

*Cough* Can do the same thing with dev crit

[JesterOI]

Personally I find BIG damage numbers more gratifying than a "Devastating Critical!" floating above baddies' heads.

Let's pump up OP crit!

[Portanas]

its fine, it was put there for a reason and it serves that purpose. stop whining

[Daltian]

sneaking somone you WILL get them flat footed (in which most classes lose almost all thier AC, if you have uncanny you retain your dex, that's all.. still lose your deflection, and dodge. a rogue coming outta sneaking with a improved knockdown would indeed devistate somone in 1 round. if you would like i can show you, and i'm talking non-epic here.. epic i can get a rogue scorin 300+ damage in a split second and then hidden again, and at epic your not going to find me without a hell of alot of listen and spot skill. as for sneaking on somone resting, currently if they're hostile it's true. you can't, this needs to be fixed, if your not aware of hostiles nearby you SHOULD be able to rest, HotU screwed this up, but it can be fixed (i've seen it done). and a mage is dead in seconds if you sneak up and knockdown him. seconds. 10d6 sneak + 2d6 physical + 1d4 physical + 2d6 elemental, your doing roughly 44 damage a hit before any resists on his gear absorb it. now 44 may not seem like alot, but this will be 5 sneaks because of the knockdown. 44x5 = 220 damage. in 1 round.

if anyone here actually doubts the power of the Shadow dancer, please just arrange a time with me, i'll host a small mod, pull out a SD with basic NS gear, and we'll see if you last more than 3 rounds from the word go. it's been proven in far too many places that the SD class is WAY too exploitive a class to be permitted, especially in a PvP setting. there is no respectable PvP server out there that hasn't banned this class, that alone should tell you how bad it is. just because people havn't learned how to truely abuse it yet does not mean they won't, especially if i keep posting 'how to abuse' guides like this.

You don't lose deflection and dodge ac if you have uncanny dodge. In fact you don't loose defection not even if you are flatfooted without uncanny dodge. Without uncanny dodge you loose only dex and dodge AC.

Second. Shadowdancer has 3 attacks. If you knockdown someone (thats with your crappy ab against a class that has discipline as their basic skill. Mages and clerics aren't included. They own you anyway. So a knockdown wont do much. Of course, theres also gear that makes you 50% and 10/-. Lets see how much damage a rogue does now? Even with your calculation of 44 dmg. You will do only 14 dmg. And only 1 attack. Because If you don't hide right after it. You will be dead after counter knockdown! So effectivly, knockdown will work only on mages and clerics and other sd/rogues. And mages will kill you the second they get up. You'll manage to land a knockdown, maybe 1 sneak too. Thats it. And you won't do any damage!
Why. Resist items on mage, premonition, ac buffs and improved invis on mage too. Evards black tentackes on the floor, banshee in the air. Rogue/sd exploding!

[AuTEC]

Having actually played a hips character in closed beta, I can say that yes its powerful...

If you want to spend all the skill points in hide and move silently, not wear a shield (sacrificing a bunch of immunes and resist), then you should be allowed to be invisible to those that don't want to spend the skill points in spot OR listen.

How many sneak attack shots (hit and hide) do you need to make anyway before the target chugs a potion.

Its all about checks and balances. Don't try to get something nerfed just because it beat up your character, think instead of ways to improve your character or plan out your next one to not be so vulnerable.

And yes, hopefully we can fix the bug to allow only one HIPS attempt per round or whatever the dev's decide is appropriate. Just make sure its on the bugreports forums that SD's can do this and they will see it.

-AuTEC

[Ezer]

Wow, I didn't expect this thread to balloon into something so big . Regarding the whole balance issue, I myself would prefer to overpower every single class to the point where the series of checks and balances become so convoluted that it would be virtually impossible to tell what's "overpowered".

I'm thinking of a situation where fighters get their devastating critical back, mages get their normal and epic spells majorly buffed in addition to more uses per day, up the DC of Wail of the Banshee to ridiciulous levels, add strength and dex modifier's to the Rogue's sneak attack, bring back two PrC per character so as to allow uber builds, stupidly powerful items, etc.

But I say this half jokingly, since it has been made clear NS4 isn't that kind of mod .

[Chimaira]

sneaking somone you WILL get them flat footed (in which most classes lose almost all thier AC, if you have uncanny you retain your dex, that's all.. still lose your deflection, and dodge. a rogue coming outta sneaking with a improved knockdown would indeed devistate somone in 1 round. if you would like i can show you, and i'm talking non-epic here.. epic i can get a rogue scorin 300+ damage in a split second and then hidden again, and at epic your not going to find me without a hell of alot of listen and spot skill. as for sneaking on somone resting, currently if they're hostile it's true. you can't, this needs to be fixed, if your not aware of hostiles nearby you SHOULD be able to rest, HotU screwed this up, but it can be fixed (i've seen it done). and a mage is dead in seconds if you sneak up and knockdown him. seconds. 10d6 sneak + 2d6 physical + 1d4 physical + 2d6 elemental, your doing roughly 44 damage a hit before any resists on his gear absorb it. now 44 may not seem like alot, but this will be 5 sneaks because of the knockdown. 44x5 = 220 damage. in 1 round.

if anyone here actually doubts the power of the Shadow dancer, please just arrange a time with me, i'll host a small mod, pull out a SD with basic NS gear, and we'll see if you last more than 3 rounds from the word go. it's been proven in far too many places that the SD class is WAY too exploitive a class to be permitted, especially in a PvP setting. there is no respectable PvP server out there that hasn't banned this class, that alone should tell you how bad it is. just because people havn't learned how to truely abuse it yet does not mean they won't, especially if i keep posting 'how to abuse' guides like this.

You don't lose deflection and dodge ac if you have uncanny dodge. In fact you don't loose defection not even if you are flatfooted without uncanny dodge. Without uncanny dodge you loose only dex and dodge AC.

Second. Shadowdancer has 3 attacks. If you knockdown someone (thats with your crappy ab against a class that has discipline as their basic skill. Mages and clerics aren't included. They own you anyway. So a knockdown wont do much. Of course, theres also gear that makes you 50% and 10/-. Lets see how much damage a rogue does now? Even with your calculation of 44 dmg. You will do only 14 dmg. And only 1 attack. Because If you don't hide right after it. You will be dead after counter knockdown! So effectivly, knockdown will work only on mages and clerics and other sd/rogues. And mages will kill you the second they get up. You'll manage to land a knockdown, maybe 1 sneak too. Thats it. And you won't do any damage!
Why. Resist items on mage, premonition, ac buffs and improved invis on mage too. Evards black tentackes on the floor, banshee in the air. Rogue/sd exploding!

Um...you obviously dont know what uncanny dodge does.
It lets you keep dex bonus, thats it, nothing else. Dodge is always lost when flatfooted. You do NOT lose deflect, natural, armor, shield OR WHATEVER when flatfooted. Btw the series of events grovel describes pretty much means everything that isnt a buffed caster explodes.

[Bob]

not wear a shield (sacrificing a bunch of immunes and resist)

Bucklers and large shields are still do-able, just not tower shields. Or items with light sources.

[EvilIguana966]

Allow me to make an anology. Say for example the B-2 Stealth Bomber were a class. It has 24 thermonuclear warheads and is undetectable by any player or monster. Once you get the B-2 PrC you can kill every player in the game at will whenever you want and suffer no retribution. The requirement are high, 2.6 billion gold and at least 10 levels and some skills. I'd say the B-2 class is over powered and needs to be balanced.

Other people would say it's only fair since the requirements are so steep. I call your BS. Steep requirement should never result in being unstoppable. If we nerf HiPS then just lower the requirements. I think the best solution is to make hips either A) Have a use/day limit or B) let true seeing see through hide. Theres no way any of us can get a high enough spot/listen skill to counter the SD, much less do it without severely gimping us in other areas.

Evil Lil Rose payed me a visit today. All she did was do her - str attack then hide, repeatedly until I couldnt move. I managed to land some smites and KDs but she just got up and hid again and healed the wounds. Theres no way to combat that.