Balance Suggestions

[Alexiagold]

So far every or almost every balance suggestion has not actually looked at the effects that said change would actually have. I disagree that casters are overpowered, but presuming this is true lets talk about possible fixes here.

Some examples of things suggested which won't actually achieve balance:

Rest restrictions, either by time or by place - does nothing for actual balance, merely makes playing a caster tedious, either because of longer down time, or because of having to walk to a safe place. This also would encourage exploiting, as well as making healing for fighters without similar restictions incredibly unbalanced.

Giving everyone +save, spell school immune items, removal of death spells, other similar - goes against what NS4 is all about. Namely that spells are supposed to have a purpose. Everyone is not supposed to be immune to every spell. And to those advocating + saves as merely allowing a 50% save chance for fighters, remeber that fighterrs have the crappiest saves, so if you allow them a 50% save chance, then everyone else will have 100% save chance, which will simply make fighters [censored] again about how only they are affected by spells. Remeber if you give fighters +10 all saves or so, then my paladin will have 50 in all saves, and my monk will have 60 in all saves, my sorc will have 60 in all saves. That's not what the developers wanted, as it makes all spells pretty much worthless.

Takeing away resists from "caster" robes - really screws over monks, dex fighters, rogues, bards, etc. Additionally does nothing, since clerics can still wear full plate easily, and most mages will then get auto-still and still spell feats, and wear the heavy armors.

The simple fact is, mages are good at killing players with low saves, most of you played NS3 with really really crappy saves, because your gear gave you enough + saves and immunities it didn't matter. In NS4 you Must have good saves inherint on your character or you WILL be owned by anything remotely resembling a caster. Heck a monk with stunning fist will own you, because you'll never make the DC save on it.

The example of the ECL is actually some what good, except that agian the caster once leveled will be way overpowering of the other classes, because if casters have an ECL, then one would presume this is because they are more powerful.

[TC-GTRF]

Personally, I think that the programming needs to be altered to the point where *no* class can solo the module. I think that reducing the power of summonses is a good start towards doing this for casters.

Resting restrictions won't work as long as anyone can log out and come back in with full HP and spells, so that is out.

A lot of complaints that are flying around seem to be pointed towards making whatever class the player uses able to solo the server. As I said above, I think that this is counterproductive to the spirit of NS_4.

As far as balance goes, I believe that the module should be set up so that two parties of a given level with all four monster foodgroups (Fighter, Cleric, Arcane and Rogue) would fight to a standstill 90% of the time.
If we've got Factions and the ability to party, let's start using it.

Some classes soloing will *always* be better than others for a given level. Look at how weak monks are at first, but Uber at 20, for example.

The ILR is *wonderful*. The lack of twinking compared to NS_3 is working perfectly, and can be measured by the amount of complaining being done.

The big weakness in Faction HQs is mostly lack of defense against Casters using invisibilty because the AI doesn't know what to do. Personally, I favor a script that automatically casts Greater Dispel on any enemy Caster that walks through a Faction HQ door. If *I* was the Ruler of a Faction, I'd be paying my mages to be making it.

[dond]

not just invis. hide is more effective (especially with HiPS), just slower walking heh.

the trap would do nothing. a wizard can multi to a rogue, and put some points in detect/disable or just choose a pixie familiar.

as for only casters soloing the mod, nope. you name the class, they can do it (haven't seen a harper scout do it yet though...)

noone has really taken a look a party vs party pvp, the discussion has just been how 'my one trick pony' cant beat axon. and that's basically all what the posts say. (again and again and again)

as far as requiring a group, synergy attacks! make the most diverse group get the best attacks!

[Æ]

Class specific gear.... that's all I've been saying

Physical resistances and immunities just on melee class armor and monk/rogue/bard/etc. robes

Less physical immune/resist on mage/cleric armor and yes mages won't be able to wear armor without spending 6 feats on it (medium armor, heavy armor, still spell, auto still I, II & III) and not until about lvl 24-26. And they still couldn't wear fighter/barb/pally/etc.-specific armor

Save bonuses on fighter/barb gear so that they're not trying to beat a dc 35 wail of the banshee with an 8 to 10 fortitude save meaning the only way they could resist that spell is with death ward or shadow shield (but casters never want to party with fighters and buff them)... 10 fort save + roll 20 = 30... give him +10 on a fighter-only item and he can succeed with a roll of ten or higher, and will still fail half of the time... it's not too much to ask for a chance to survive a random sneak attack from a mage.... {and let me point something out--in 8 more levels my fighter/weapon master will have 10-20x3 dual wield devestating crits with rapier... high fort saves would work against me too, the DC will be about the same as your wail and I'll be able to instantly slay any fighter... shouldn't be that way. Even in the original NWN single player game, which is as nerfed as this game can be, there were save bonuses}

Weapons of the same type with different types of physical damage bonus, for weapon masters and weapon specialists (asking for 3 rapiers for my WM that do bludgeon/pierce/slash damage is no different than there being differnt arrows available for archers)

And really that's about all I'm saying (I don't think I left anything out) and I think these are all reasonable suggestions... and I really think you need to chill out and stop being so afraid of not being able to instantly defeat anyone anymore... you may find you'll have more fun that way anyway

And having it be totally impossible to solo is agaisnt the dev's intentions too... they want to cater to all sorts of players AND bring to life their party-pvp-faction vision. The two ideas are not mutually exclusive, and it adds some richness to the world as well to have individuals and groups operating outside of their factions and perhaps mercenary types who will fight for any faction who pays them... think about THAT wouldn't it be cool?! }: ) Especially if they put up that billboard where you'll see "tailor for hire", "blacksmith for hire", and "mercenary mage will unleash mass destruction on your foes for 500k and a shield of the okieslayer"

[Alexiagold]

Physical resistances and immunities just on melee class armor and monk/rogue robes

Less physical immune/resist on mage/cleric armor

Won't work, because I can take 20 levels of fighter and 20 levels of sorc, or better yet 20 levels of paladin.

Save bonuses on fighter/barb gear so that they're not trying to beat a lvl 20 dc 35 wail of the banshee with an 8 to 10 fortitude save meaning the only way they could resist that spell is with death ward or shadow shield (but casters never want to party with fighters and buff them)... 10 fort save + roll 20 = 30... give him +10 on a fighter-only item and he can succeed with a roll of ten or higher, and will still fail half of the time... it's not too much to ask for a chance to survive a random sneak attack from a mage

1 There is fighter armor with shadow shield uses per day, you don't need a caster partied with you.

2 To have a fort save of 10 at level 20, you would need to have a -2 con modifier, since at level 20 a fighter has 12 base fort save, + con, + gear.

That's right, you could wear a belt with +5 fort saves, and armor with +3 death saves, having con of 20 or +5 that gives your fighters 12+5+5+3 or 25, heh that's 50% save rate. Wow maybe you should change gear? Heck now stack onto that better con, better builds and viola you are death spell immune simply by having 35 fort save. Come on, its not that hard. Hell those stupid NCP dorf guards are my most feared opponents, because thier forts are so high they never fail saves, and they do bludge damage, something none of the high level caster robes resist...

Weapons of the same type with different types of physical damage bonus, for weapon masters and weapon specialists (asking for 3 rapiers for my WM that do bludgeon/pierce/slash damage is no different than there being differnt arrows available for archers)

A crafted rapier has different damages, I'd make you one seeing as we're both in LA, but you said this about me

you really have a problem with see things the way they are don't you?
and I'm really tired of arguing against someone who refuses to just admit the truth, it's pointless. I didn't even read all of that, you're wasting my time...

Anyone going to lock this before she b*tches anymore?

And

your presuptuous little condescending snob ... you're starting to really annoy me... leave me out of your litany of friggin stupidity... As of now you are nothing but a ranting, bratty little lying girl in my eyes

And

And I'll be ignoring you, as you're not worth the energy it takes to even type this, you waste of cellular matter

And

please, go touch yourself if you need a thrill that badly or to release your pent up sexual frustration that you take out on other players

And

... well anyway you get the point.

[TC-GTRF]

Class specific gear.... that's all I've been saying

Physical resistances and immunities just on melee class armor and monk/rogue/bard/etc. robes

Less physical immune/resist on mage/cleric armor and yes mages won't be able to wear armor without spending 6 feats on it (medium armor, heavy armor, still spell, auto still I, II & III) and not until about lvl 24-26. And they still couldn't wear fighter/barb/pally/etc.-specific armor

Save bonuses on fighter/barb gear so that they're not trying to beat a dc 35 wail of the banshee with an 8 to 10 fortitude save meaning the only way they could resist that spell is with death ward or shadow shield (but casters never want to party with fighters and buff them)... 10 fort save + roll 20 = 30... give him +10 on a fighter-only item and he can succeed with a roll of ten or higher, and will still fail half of the time... it's not too much to ask for a chance to survive a random sneak attack from a mage.... {and let me point something out--in 8 more levels my fighter/weapon master will have 10-20x3 dual wield devestating crits with rapier... high fort saves would work against me too, the DC will be about the same as your wail and I'll be able to instantly slay any fighter... shouldn't be that way. Even in the original NWN single player game, which is as nerfed as this game can be, there were save bonuses}

Weapons of the same type with different types of physical damage bonus, for weapon masters and weapon specialists (asking for 3 rapiers for my WM that do bludgeon/pierce/slash damage is no different than there being differnt arrows available for archers)

And really that's about all I'm saying (I don't think I left anything out) and I think these are all reasonable suggestions... and I really think you need to chill out and stop being so afraid of not being able to instantly defeat anyone anymore... you may find you'll have more fun that way anyway

And having it be totally impossible is agaisnt the dev's intentions too... they want to cater to all sorts of players AND bring to life their party-pvp-faction vision. The two ideas are not mutually exclusive, and it adds some richness to the world as well to have individuals and groups operating outside of their factions and perhaps mercenary types who will fight for any faction who pays them... think about THAT wouldn't it be cool?! }: ) Especially if they put up that billboard where you'll see "tailor for hire", "blacksmith for hire", and "mercenary mage will unleash mass destruction on your foes for 500k and a shield of the okieslayer"

I disagree totally. What you are suggesting is a return to NS_3 with dependence on items. Reduce power of classes as necessary to create balance, do *not* make people have to have Uber items in order to play well. Next you'll be asking for Haste back.

And, btw, there *is* no Dev Crit in NS_4, so no matter what you've done to prepare for it, you won't be able to get it.

[Æ]

GRRR...... I would love to change gear... but I can't just blast the hell out of everything in the mod like you can and collect it all and i can't get anyone to party with a fighter, so i'm still in lvl 13 gear from avendell and a few things I pickup up around the world that are around the same level

your opinions are so ridiculously biased

PS I edited some of that to elaborate more if you want to read it

And all those insults at the end were in response to yourdisrespectful, condescending attitude, and you further disrespecting me by twisting my words and totally making things up I didn't say... but of course you didn't repost any of THAT... but I'll be the better person and I won't either because 1) it's petty gossip-ey slandering and 2) you're wasting more of my time with your bad attitude when all I was trying to do was calmly explain my cast again to you in hopes that you may understand and stop being such a god damned b*tch to me!!! GOD!

[TC-GTRF]

GRRR...... I would love to change gear... but I can't just blast the hell out of everything in the mod like you can and collect it all and i can't get anyone to party with a fighter, so i'm still in lvl 13 gear from avendell and a few things I pickup up around the world that are around the same level

your opinions are so ridiculously biased

PS I edited some of that to elaborate more if you want to read it

Alexia's fighter can't wear Uber gear even if she collected it from guards all over the continent. Her fighters are restricted by ILR. same as yours. At worst, she'll have a complete set of items a half-level before you do.

I play a melee-type, and I've never seen any need to carry around three different sets of armor and shields. In addition, I've *never* had a problem finding people to party with. Maybe it's that I'm in NC?

Jeez, it sounds like you'd be a lot happier playing NS_3, AE. Why are you here?

[powerferret]

well, looks like you lost one ally in you're own faction Æ. Its fine to have a different oppinion, but its quite another thing to get angry and vengeful because you can change someones mind and they continue to argue with you. Ive been reading through most of the threads and the quasi-intelectual insults seem to be mostly one sided.

ive said it before and Ill say it again,you don't have to play as a different class than your favorite, but you DO need to learn how to build a working character in that class. low saving throws? did you get the great fortitude or iron will feats? on first level did you get the luck of heroes feat? Do you have a decent CON? did you put any points into wisdom or is your character as wise an a bott fly? It seems like you have a character build and are unwilling to make any variations at all to it. The only things that survive in the real world and game world alike, are those things that change and adapt to their surroundings.

Adapt or die.



and Æ, im not picking on you in particular, this goes for anyone who refuses to try different things with their characters.

[AndrewCarr]

The problem with a melee weapon that does three different types of damage vs a bunch of arrows that each do a different type of dmg is of course, the fighter can be lazy and never switch out to adapt to the situation. This just makes for crappy fights. Although having a rapier that does bludge, one that does pierce, and one that does slash, wouldn't be bad.

[Æ]

There's no dev crit?! I was told there was.... with no real save bonuses versus death magic there should be....

God this is all so slanted towards mage supremecy it's rediculous... I quit...

You can all play this pathetic shadow of what used to be a great mod, I'm going to stop trying to help develop it because obviously the feedback isn't appreciated...... I can't believe I wasted time in my life on this crap...

and i said 3 rapiers, not one that does all 3 damage types

[EvanFallen]

The problem with a melee weapon that does three different types of damage vs a bunch of arrows that each do a different type of dmg is of course, the fighter can be lazy and never switch out to adapt to the situation. This just makes for crappy fights. Although having a rapier that does bludge, one that does pierce, and one that does slash, wouldn't be bad.

Unless the NS developers have changed this, all physical damage will stack with the main damage type of the weapon. If you have a 1d6 rapier with 2d6 slashing and 2d6 bludgeoning, it will cause 5d6 piercing damage.

[Thanos]

No real save bonus vs death magic? There is tons of save bonus for fort saves. I have an item with +4 for save. There is a feat that gives +2 save. Some classes have ungody saves. Cot? Monk? Pally? Some races have fort save bonus. Some spell give fort saves. Ironguts? Get potions of ironguts its a level 1 spell. If you think thats a big weakness for your fighter you can take lots of steps to reduce it.

The problem with the death spells for mages is the only way to raise the save is int bonus and spell focus. Finger of death save will max out around 30 as fighters get into their 20s the spell will become less effective. AT some point the mage won't even bother with it.

I still think everyone is getting hung up on this 1 vs 1 fighter vs sorceror pvp match up. If both characters are 100% buffed and ready the sorc will always win. This game is DnD and that class was never balanced for pvp. Sorc has the ability to adapt to any situation because it can pick the spells on the fly. Thats a huge advantage. On top of it somone can take 1 level of pally making a cheese character. Make their sorc have crazy saves on top of that.

Some things in the game were taken from the DnD books where players play with a DM who can counteract, modify and change the rules to defeat some of these uber skills as he sees fit. Computer game is never going to replace the DM.

3 things i think totally unbalance this game and give classes major advanted of others.

1. Dev critical (this has already been removed.)
2. Hips (something needs to be done about this)
3. Sorc class (I think this class should just be removed.) Play a wizard if you want to be a caster.

Anyway they are working on Balancing the game. A bunch of spell nerfs came in last day or 2. They are trying to make the game more fair. Its beta and its going to take some time. I still think the game is group pvp. Best way to fix your weakness is bring friends along with you.

[Glimmer]

How many times can one man quit?

Quiting a game is the ultimate act a player can resort to if they have a very strong opinion against a game.

AE, I do not agree with your view of caster power, however if you really want to make a strong statement don't threaten to quit then keep posting on these boards.

Say you will quit, say why you are quiting, cancell your account and stop paying your $10 a month and never post again!!!!

That will make the strongest argument of all!!!

[JesterOI]

I agree with Alexia on less xp for caster classes.

I disagree with Alexia on rest restrictions partly and agree with her partly.

This works out perfectly because of Potion and Scroll making.

I wouldn't use rest restrictions personally. What I would do is use the spell slot recharge time idea ( a le yours truly ). Take the time limiters that are in place to prevent fast paced advancement in tradeskills and apply these time limits to spell slots.

Slot recharge time can be customized by the devs to take into account:
caster level
spell level
skill level (spellcraft)
area where the spell was discharged
time of day (ex. drows recharge faster at night, NC clerics recharge faster during the day)
Just to name a few basic ones...

I believe that Spell Slot Recharge times are the best solution. With one stone recharge times make scribing and potion creation an integral part of being a caster (like they should be) and slow the advancement of heavy casters by incurring xp costs for scroll and potions, which also helps balance them. Having to return to town to stock up on scrolls and potions is no different than a warrior having to return to stock up on heal kits.

With that said, XP costs on scribing and potion making need to be re-evaluated.