The Death Express

[Blystos Re]

randdo, you have summed it up perfectly.

mgrjebbo, that's what I intend to do - despite the disadvantage it may put me at.

Amenotep, glad I could contribute.

...and Fatz...only for you.

Ok, I'm done.

[kingfatzo]

For me, it's not a question of "Do I like it or not". It's more in line with what is NS4 about.

Yes people take the PK express, they always have. The beauty of it is that you still need player interaction even if it's just for a PK from either your party you drop out from or by someone else you come across on your travels. The Death Express takes no effort, no interaction at all.

Pros (or exploits) of Death Express:
***Requires no player interaction on any level of game play and at no cost to get back home instantly. (so killing each other in party is interactive? lol)***No more having to plan what areas your playing in because of distance traveled from supply sources. (umm...you still have to walk there....you a glutton for punishment? would be nice to cut travel time in half!)
***No more having to run back to get new gear on a Level-Up. (ooooo a whopping 5-10 minutes...big deal...again revert to your previous statment....OR plan ahead and have the next gear interval on your person already -- pWnd !).
***No more worries about respawn times. Instead of working zones 1 - 2 and 3 then working them in reverse just DE and start back at the beginning. By then the first zone should be fully loaded. (to DE and walk back to the area you were leveling will take the same time to just manually walk back to the beginning zone that you were leveling in !)
***No more worries about getting lost while exploring the server. "Lost" don't shout and ask for directions involving player interaction. Take the DE and start over. (Ummm...we have maps ! pWnd again !)
***No more worries about coming up against mobs that are too strong for you. Run like hell and zone then DE before anything can target you in the next zone. (hahahaha Mobs cant travel from zone to zone...so how is that not fair?)
***No need to watch your supplies (heal kits or pots). DE your way back to Elvin. (dont be redundant now..you mentioned supply issues already)
***No need to watch your pack load. Collect/get as heavy as you want and as much as you want then DE home. (mentiaoned already-- a well-built strength build will run out of space before weight capacity anyways !1!!1...however...this is your first quasi-valid point)
***No need to worry about Level Drain or any other effect not cured by rest. No potions, no cleric, no PC around to PK you, no problem DE and your all fixed. (ya can always find someone to PK ya...just have to know where to go/ who to ask)
***No need for haste for getting around if it's not a PvP build. Bind where it's handy and DE your way around. (ummm....no; again; its a 1-way ticket...still involves PLENTY of walking)***No need to worry about "Server Resets" if your fighting a group of mobs. Break free zone DE your way to safety. (revert back to your other weak attempt about mobs above)
***No need to be bothered with being in a party for "player" support other than for XP or raiding reason. (XP/raiding is the ONLY reason for parties...so what is lost by this? nothing )
***No need to worry how you or others act in a party. Want to get rid of them, DE your way out and go somewhere else leaving the "bad one" hanging until they use DE. (HAHAHAHAH!!!! no different than just walking away !!!!)

Like I said in my previous post, I use it, I use it lots and for all of the reasons above. It is super handy. Has cut down on a lot of "running around". It has definitely changed the play style of NS4.

Why do they do it? Do we care? Is there a message in this? What should we do about it? Stop it, embrace it, ignore it?
The jury is still out on this one.

Why? ** For many reasons and transportation is just one. Testing builds, seeing damage done or taken, bragging rights within a guild or party, the one your partied with is getting to be a pain, one has an effect that can only be cured by death at the time.
Care? ** Why should it bother anyone on the Dev or DM team. It only effects the player who is traveling this way. It hurts no one. It gives only a temp, slight advantage as a exploit but still requires another player's interaction, which is not available all the time.
Message? ** I have yet to here of anyone "quitting" NS4 because they have to run around for "stuff'. Most who stay have just accepted it as a fact of NS4 life. If "they" wanted speedy travel, NS3 is the place for them. Where haste items are available. The ones who stay here are here because of the challenge of the server, raids and just common PvP. Cater to those who are of the "come and go" players, here for a few weeks and gone again, NS4 loses.
What should we do about it? ** Why do anything. PK as a travel means has been around since NS4 has been. Don't let your own personal feelings get the best of you. Recall stones, haste items have all been discussed before on past threads. The end result was that this is the way NS4 has been set up and that is the way things are. We've all made our minds up that this is what we wanted because we're still here.

The question your trying to answer is: Is PK for transportation or cure an exploit and can/should it be stopped. Your answer should be Yes it is an exploit, but is limited in that it requires another player to carry out the act. No other player, no act. Does it give any real continuous gaming advantage? NO. It's just a temparary thing. Again requiring another player to be there. Very specific conditions required for PK travel or cure.

DE on the other hand. Well look reasons why I use and will continue to use it for as long as it is on my book.

im not sure if you are outright against it....nonetheless i feel i have proven how this is not reallly anything exploitable...more a convienence !

[disastro]

the death express is such a nice feature. i spend more time playing the game and less time retracing steps. of course, i already had this advantage in a party via player kill, now the last man standing gets to go home too.

thanks so much for putting in a great quality of life enhancement feature. it's one of those unexpected things that makes so much sense yet I never even thought of it.

and since there's always a person or two who will complain over just about any feature, here's the obligatory quote: "Just because a few people complain doesn't mean it's broken."

as for the sentiment that "at least a pk requires the milk of human contact!!" well this feature is a boon only to the solo player so that argument is irrelevant. in all other cases this adds nothing over the already common pk, this just un-nerfs the last man.

[kingfatzo]

things that makes so much sense yet I never even thought of it.

and since there's always a person or two who will complain over just about any feature, here's the obligatory quote: "Just because a few people complain doesn't mean it's broken."
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well put !!!!

[randdo]

I am neither for or against it. I simply stated that it changes NS4. This, btw, will also be my last forum contribution.

Let me explain a couple of points by quoting for those who missed it or who have trouble reading.

#1.

So there you have it - let us know what you think of this feature. Your feedback and the way we see it being used will determine whether or not it stays.

#2.

Sweet. I was hoping for something like this actually.

Many more comments like this.
#3.

1 reminder a great helpful feature, if you get stuck and relogging doesnt help and nobody around you can at least kill yourself if no DM on to help.

#4.

I'm gonna be a party pooper and pose a question. Doesn't Death Express now eliminate the effectiveness of being level-drained via trapped chests, monsters or via enervation or energy drain spells by a cleric/mage?

and there are a couple like this.

But what you missed completely in my first post to this thread was:

Although I like the convenience of the Death Express it just doesn't have that NS4 feeling. (If it ain't broke why fix it. Less can be more.) Add to much and lose the uniqueness that is NS4.

and this from my second post.

Well look reasons why I use and will continue to use it for as long as it is on my book.

Pretty damn hard to say "look at the reasons why I use it" without having some reasons there to look at. I didn't know that I had to have my reasons for using it "proven" by someone else specially with "HAHAHAHA" and "pWnd!". Nor did I know that posting one's reason for or against using DE it was considered whining.

At no time did I come across anyone in this thread complaining about the use of DE so where do the comments come from about "If you don't like it don't use it" or "Stop your whining" and like kinded remarks? You consider other people's opinions, suggestions to be whining? I guess some people just don't know how to read. Specially when Zing asked for comments, thoughts opinions about DE.

Maybe somewhere in what I expressed was something not thought of by the Dev's or the DM's. That information was for Zing and the Team to sort through. So no more posting here for me. From now on I'll just PM my comments and thoughts directly to those on Dev or the DM team when requested, where the information shared will be read and respected as coming from a long time player.

Signing off NS4 forums randdo.

[Ryddwillow]

In my own OPINION wouldnt it have been easier to make your local priest's to sell restoration pots to avoid the lvl drains or some magic potion. I have been here for some time and this feature in which I can live w/ or not is a little extreme. I think why I have stayed here is due to it not being over uberness. I don't know but I believe there is a easier solution here because I believe there is going to be some ppl that exploit this. The whole part is walking your happy self to areas and back. I dont know, little extreme I guess.

So when are the plus 20 gear coming? Soon?

[disastro]

The whole part is walking your happy self to areas and back.

well if just walking is the best part of the nwn experience for you, then yes this feature kills it, but only for those that use it. I however find the other features of ns4 vastly more compelling, to each his own i guess.

So when are the plus 20 gear coming? Soon?

now THERE's a stunning leap in logic.

if folks are worried about the RP aspect of a "death express" feature then much could be avoided by simply calling it a "shard recall" and changing the graphic. however this is not really an rp server and nitpicking generally well received features on that score alone is not really warranted.

[kingfatzo]

At no time did I come across anyone in this thread complaining about the use of DE so where do the comments come from about "If you don't like it don't use it" or "Stop your whining" and like kinded remarks? You consider other people's opinions, suggestions to be whining? I guess some people just don't know how to read. Specially when Zing asked for comments, thoughts opinions about DE.
Signing off NS4 forums randdo.

Zzzzz

dont get too lost in the pull and insanity of the forums...not everything must be taken litereally...

thats y i asked at the end what your standpoint was

oh...and i should have made the edits neater....i just bought a 2000dpi mouse since my old one crapped out...i was getting used to the speed ajustments and was having a hard time clicking accurately
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i mearly strived to prove the points you mentioned to be invalid in an argument against the DE....and in a sense open up the floor for continued opinions...however; this is just another fine example of where one simple thing is made and it explodes into a massive mess of posts full of crazy variables and certian specific circumstances.... a teacher once told me years ago when i was in highschool to use the "KIS" or "KISS" principle...

for the easily flamed; or offended the "KIS" principle is fine - KEEP IT SIMPLE

but for everyone else my resonce to these barrages of tangents is "KISS" KEEP IT SIMPLE STUPID

nonetheless....opinions be opinions; i stand behind the changes made...seems the devs had already covered the things discussed here and decided on what they thought was best for the player base....

ty to them *raises beer glass*

[TheStoneOne]

ok here is my 2cents.

1. i agree with randdo on atleast 1 thing, the way ppls posts are attacked on this forumn wiht all the pwnded whining comments has always really peved me off.

Randdo there are just some ppl on this server that as soon as your opinion is contrary to theres they feel the need to be little you and your opinion.

2. The death express itself - im in two minds about this because basically coming from rk i went out into the black hills with like 2k till 5th killed orcs got my lvl and then death expressed myself back to rk to buy new gear guild color it etc. Now plenty of ppl will go yeah cool thats what its for but ill add i was solo.

also im a dwarf cleric non favoured class so any death soon after lvling woulda cost me the lvl which could never happen now cause i hit the kill myself button, as well as all the other positive and neg points braught up by others the one that sticks out to me is basically this (ITS not feeling like NS4) :

why was NS a stone of recall free server to begin with ?? someone in charge made the call im sure. Now the problem became about ppl killing other players to act as a stone of recall - basically something never intended for the server, so now im just throwing this out there seems to me that both the death xpress and pvp to get you home were never intended as part of the server --- so why not stop them both ???

essentially i seem to remember some posts in the past or even a thread where kromix and others told there stories about being massively encumbered in far reaching parts of the realm with gold buddha and sarcophagi - they were all infact laughing about it - is it such a bad thing.

Many ppl have said how they enjoy the challenge on this server seems to me that getting home from far flung places fully encumbered is real challenging isnt it ?

somethings to think about anyways flame away those who disagree also can we get some dev/dm comment on the original no recall type server thing if possible there must of been good reasons for it maybe we should re examine why it was done to see the way forward on this issue ?

[Flailer]

can we get some dev/dm comment on the original no recall type server thing if possible there must of been good reasons for it maybe we should re examine why it was done to see the way forward on this issue ?

Not sure if I can comment on the original no stone-of-recall since I wasn't on the original design team. But the goal of our development thus far has been trying to acheive a balance of having areas to explore, giving a sense of scale to the world, and not making transportation too cumbersome. Zing's done a lot to improve transport in the mod with the addition of the dragon transports and a couple new ferries.

The other options that we were discussing internally were adding better return portals to areas instead (like a return to bindpoint portal in the Nexus areas and from common dead end areas like Giant Mountain) or coming up with a system that causes XP loss for breaking party and performing a PK in order to get a free ride home and at the same time charging for the use of some Death Express like feature.

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And randdo, I'd encourage you to keep posting to the forums. We need the input of all viewpoints - you just gotta go to your happy place when the forum filth starts to rise... Plus, it's easier for the devs to keep track of the exchange of ideas on the forums than via PMs.

[VagaStorm]

I'm in favor of the de as it is implemented now, but I hant to point out that it is wery difrent from how the recall stone worked. The de is a way to get back when you are done, you can not use it in combat or when ther are hstiles close by, so often you will have to clear atlest the same space as you would have needed for a rest. The recall stone was basicly a "holy *****, this is going to *****! Get me out of her, NOW!" kind of button. One of those I would not welcome.

[Poet]

I'm in favor of the de as it is implemented now, but I hant to point out that it is wery difrent from how the recall stone worked. The de is a way to get back when you are done, you can not use it in combat or when ther are hstiles close by, so often you will have to clear atlest the same space as you would have needed for a rest. The recall stone was basicly a "holy *****, this is going to *****! Get me out of her, NOW!" kind of button. One of those I would not welcome.

I agree here. If the DE were usable in combat or at any time, I would probably not welcome it either. The fact that you really have to be "done" as Vaga put it, was very well thought out and well implemented. I have also noticed that the range for using it while hostiles is around is a bit larger than even required for a rest, because when I tried it, I could rest, but not use the DE until I cleared a larger area.

Again, well thought out and well implemented

[kingfatzo]

The other options that we were discussing internally were adding better return portals to areas instead (like a return to bindpoint portal in the Nexus areas and from common dead end areas like Giant Mountain)

a good idea....but nonetheless the people who "COMMENTED" or as i like to call it - complained - about the DE expressed concern involving just that....but at the broader level of courese since the DE could be used "anywhere".....however at the same time it still leaves you with the same concept -- if you dont like it; it doesnt mean you have to use it - only because the changes that were made do not require players to use it !

if it works; dont fix it.

coming up with a system that causes XP loss for breaking party and performing a PK in order to get a free ride home and at the same time charging for the use of some Death Express like feature.
.

problems:

1. cross-fatcion parties who turn violent on each other
2. in-faction PVP-ers (lurking within a party)
3. the PVP-concept as a whole

NS4 is a PK server. PK's should deal NO penalties other than death. PERIOD..... talk about going against the grain there...sorry but i must say Flailer; i dislike even the thought of that implimentation .... the loopholes may be uncommon...but they still have happened.
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I agree here. If the DE were usable in combat or at any time, I would probably not welcome it either. The fact that you really have to be "done" as Vaga put it, was very well thought out and well implemented.

exactly; which eliminates many of the 'proposals' of the opposition to this new implimentation.....

the concen of this being an exploit is rather 'out there' when it comes to use in or near a PVM fight that went sour..... anyone who wants to be a coward could simply log off ; the map will reset and gives you a chance to get out of the zone safley....

I have also noticed that the range for using it while hostiles is around is a bit larger than even required for a rest, because when I tried it, I could rest, but not use the DE until I cleared a larger area.

i noticed this as well.

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i am not slandering opinions here...well not intentionally....

i am just trying to prove that this system benifits everyone and so far seems to be liked by the majority of those whom commented on it....

maybe a poll is in order; like we have done for relics/bigbys in the past... etc....

[TheStoneOne]

Fatso why do you continually come back to the if you dont like it dont use it thing??

The point ppl were trying to make is it shouldnt exist for anyone to use in there opinion wether - u like it or not, it shouldnt be an option.

Flailers point about the discussion on xp loss for pk transportation shows some things up - basically there are obviously ppl in charge that dont like the stone of recall, pk your m8 home idea at all i mean someone put it on the table though so there are those in favor of it as well i guess.

same thing going on in this thread but essentially while i realise when you die your not really dead you go back to your bind point and thats good or we would all have very short lasting toons but some feel and i am among them that this feature which allows a character to have more than the preverbial 9 lives is has and can be abused as a means of free transport which again is that what the no xp loss pvp thing is about , or is it actually using an exploit to pk your mate home ???

Again its not the kind of thing thats going to make me stamp my stubborn donkey legs in the ground and say well thats it the servers gone to hell in a hand bag im leaving I do see both sides of the argument however and the idea that less time traveling is more time playing is good also but has other aspects to it.

The server seems to me and again just my opinion to be heading in the directiion of ridiculously fast lvling toon meta game type stuff , now many ppl have said it NS is not a 100% rp server but neither is it a 100% meta game server either, which i think is an excellent thing having factors that appeal to both sides of gaming style.

see the fact that u can now zip yourself somewhere that took a fair wack of time to get back to leaves you more time to have "fun" or lvl your toon I guess what im saying is i agree with willow its starting to feel like a slippery slope heading towards +20 gear im not sure but certainly heading towards more the 100% meta game race to 40 awesome pk build and forget the rest toon.

i guess i might be wrong but i remember somewhere in the little yellow book manual for this game where it said basically that some really great and fun to play toons were the ones with large flaws in them brings me back to my pen and paper days where i rolled up a paladin my 1st ever was all looking great till i rolled for HP in front of the DM and rolled a 1 he made me keep it so turned out i had a 1hp paladin who ended up with a yellow stripe down his plate mail cause of all the running i had to do ( and the standing behind other toons) the point being that you cna still have fun travelking back ( maybe you can pk or get pked on the way back?) or we can follow the slope to as willow put it +20 wpns

See the further down the slope the less challenging the server - i mean think back a cpl years and tell me those of you that were around was not the server really more challenging then it is now ??

Ok prolly way to long but i feel we need to stop going down the slope somewhere and im drawing my line here at this point

[Zing]

I wouldn't worry about a slippery slope if I were you.

The very fact that this was released provisionally and alongside this forum topic shows how the team feel about it.

We haven't decided if this is staying or not yet.