Grievance

mumoogaipan · Post by **mumoogaipan** » Tue May 04, 2004 2:01 am

I think a lot of the core issues in my post were ignored and that most people arent willing to look at the okies from their perspective. They are powerful and very deceitful. This is a given. Everyone knows that from NS3. But that doesn't mean that when we die from them that we should be upset. Couple of reasons:

1) when you die in NS you dont die for real you just respawn.

2) It is established that when you are killed by an okie you are being killed by NPC's

3) It is also established that the Okies can bend rules and that we can't.

Now look particularly at number 3. We all enter into a contract when we play NS4 it is to abide by rules. But when okies become okies (however that is done) they abide by a contract they have made with the devs and the mods. Their contract states that they can kill anyone and anyone can kill them without penalty. The right is reflexive. Also, when our characters become poewrful enough we can crush okies (hoepfully) and the okies can not complain. Whereas when okies crush us we can complain. This is not reflexive. Funny how everyone want things to be equal but not really ^_^. I dont think that ATI dealt with this issue at all.

Additionally, i do support a social darwinistic approach to a game world were death doesnt matter. Why? because it means A) each time i die i become a better product because i am learning how to adapt. B) it means that character have an infinite ability to adapt instead of only learning your mistake once and permanently dying. Also, look at it this way, if you aren't ready to fight okies than dont get near them. I know it is hard sometimes and the okie might catch you. But that makes you wiser the next time you fight the okies or are near them. This is why i state that it is just a game and doesn't really matter if characters die.

More than that, the system seems unequal because you can't kill okies. But what happens in a world when you can kill okies. You get to boast about it and rub it in the okies face. What does the okie get to do. They get to sit there and take it because they dont have to the right to complain about how evil a person is at killing them.

Lastly, what if you weren't fighting an okie but a faction member and he killed you the same way. Would you complain that the member of the enemy faction who killed you should be banned? Or do you accept that the member of the enemy faction is supposed to kill you? Hmmm..... if you say yes to number one then you are denying the purpose of NS4 as a PvP server with a built in system to fight another person. If you say yes to number 2 then you should be okay with an okie killing you as well. It seems to me that you (ATI) are upset that your party members werent able to get out in time and were killed by a summon (which by the way has not been proven to be on purpose to exploit a bug. In order to show that you would have to prove intent to disobey the rules which you can't).

Post by **TGPO** » Tue May 04, 2004 2:21 am

ATI, you posted a well thought out thread, Killing Sheep came in and gave his opinion. Both of you have had posts deleted from this thread now and the other two locked.

Discussion is fine, flaming and spamming are not.

Just a friendly reminder regarding the rules of the forums.

Æ · Post by Æ » Tue May 04, 2004 2:23 am

A thought...

I haven't personally witnessed anyone cheating or exploiting as of yet, but if people are in fact doing so....

What happened to the good ol' Whitecloaks? Don't we get to see Delah in her sexy white uniform anymore?
*dodges slaps from both delah and his wife then dies because delah clicked him*
ack! sorry lol
*get's back up and brushes himself off*
Will and Seif don't look bad it theirs either lol }: P
*dodges a barrage of arrows from two directions*
Just kidding guys lol

A gnome too far · Post by **A gnome too far** » Tue May 04, 2004 3:10 am

I agree with ATI. Rules should apply to all players equally. Arguing that okies have it tougher than everyone else is a false argument, because it ignores that fact that they choose to be okies knowing full well what that means - presumably because they like it. On the other hand, many people do not choose to be the victim of okies nor do they want to be. My experience with the okies I have met is that they not only break the rules but they are both childish and rude in doing so. I tried numerous times in NS3 to talk to them and try to establish some basic level at which we could play the game together but all they seem to do is act as if they have been greviously misunderstood while all the while rampantly PP'ing my characters. Sure they are very good sports when someone strikes back - but that's because they enjoy that style of play. The trouble is, because they are so indiscriminate in their actions towards other players, they end up forcing their style of play on people who don't want that from the game.

NS4 is a game that belongs to the creators and they have every right to choose to allow okies to act as they do and to assign different rules to different groups - their game, their rules. But what I think comes through with ATI's argument most clearly is that, regardless of what 'rights' exist, there is a large player base that does not like their behaviour and will quite simply not play the game if they are constantly subjected to it. After some great times on Central and then North, I left NS3 South for that very reason. I can't imagine any developer would prefer a world filled with Okie type players as compared to one filled with people who act decently. I don't question the dev's and DM's right to make the world what they envision it to be, but they ought to take note of how that vision impacts people who appreciate their great work but simply want to enjoy it in peace.

I hope ATI's well thought out post is given proper consideration.

_______________________
Lothar Shadowstaff (NS3)
Lothain the Stormwarden (NS4)

Chimaira · Post by **Chimaira** » Tue May 04, 2004 3:16 am

Well I thought reagen was cool after I read his REALLY good bio...
I mean cmon the parts about the depends and rubbing off to snuff films in women underwear is just hilarious.

Anyway to some of the less educated people: This is not about someone being killed by an okie.
From what I understood a whole party was killed by a summon and their inventories were wiped because of a bug, so basicly this is bug exploiting. What do the rules say? Well if there wasnt one that says bug exploiting isnt allowed then the okies would have done nothing wrong, but there is and that means they broke a rule. Now I actually dont know reagen, I only read his bio, so I cant tell wheter he would do that on purpose or not.

And killingsheep, really if you dont care, why do you bother posting on a forum? Seems like to me you have more important matters in life to attend to, what makes you stay here, and instead of argue about a computer game, you try to act like your the only person here that has ever seen someone of the oppesite funny business. If you dont care and that think theres more important things such as world hunger, pollution and bush blowing up another country just so he can look good by "busting" world terrorism then you should become a politician and do something about it, rather then act like your the only person that has read a newspaper in the last 9 years. (btw this is not flaming, flaming would be to insult him, Im not insulting, Im asking why the heck he bothers to even read posts if he doesnt care about something unimportant like a computer game)

A gnome too far · Post by **A gnome too far** » Tue May 04, 2004 3:19 am

Actually this is exactly about the okies - hence the first line of ATI's original post. And I support his post entirely.

________________________
Lothar Shadowstaff (NS3)
Lothain the Stormwarden (NS4)

Qui · Post by **Qui** » Tue May 04, 2004 8:52 am

Hmm, just so everyone knows when the okies started out in Garagot (MA) DM fire came on and mad eit clear to everyon this is a pvp server, they can pvp anyone, there is no lvl requirement for them to pvp or pk anyone, and furthermore this type of thing IS the reason they implemented negative reputation.

Now lets get to the heart of all this dilemna. The okies mostly came from South NS3. South, for all of us that ahd been there awhile, was a more pvp server than any of the others. You wont find alot of the old South players being angry with the okies because we all have a little okie in us. Chasing down okies and killing themf or fun and bounties anyone? right. All im syaing is that the combination of people form different NS3 servers along with new players has created a clash in play styles. Luckily, since the dms have made it clear NS4 is a pvp mod, there are currently no hard rules about pking as long as it isnt obsessive (DM fire defined obsessive as more than once in a 15 ish minute period)/. Also thanks to the size of the mod in general it is unlikely that that anyone will be able to kill somone else in 15-30 minute time span. Also, if the pk is against another faction then it is ALWAYS allowed. Which brings me to the next point, as an okie is thrown out of their faction they basically become hostile to everyone therefore any pking they do is within interfaction war rules.

So, there are two options.. carry some invis with you.. You see an okie who is hotile go invis, avoid him, kick their a$$es, SD lvl, enough said, or just run away if u dont wanna die....

Yeah thats right.. Okies rock my Socks.. mad props to Okie-C, Mush, and all the others for keeping things interesting and full of controversy...

mmmmmm Tasty

Qui · Post by **Qui** » Tue May 04, 2004 8:54 am

In cas eit wasnt clear above.. I love the okies.. they crap me up.

tyrant · Post by **tyrant** » Tue May 04, 2004 9:10 am

Im not saying I know much about the okies specifically but I've encountered guilds like them on other games. If I got killed in pvp I usually found ways to become more powerful so I wouldn't be killed. It sure beat whining and complaining on the boards which would have got me nowhere.

If half the time was used to form strategies, groups or other methods to go and hunt and kill okies that you guys waste on grievance post, complaints and soapboxes about them there would be a lot more dead okies. my point is instead of sitting around complaining about as someone said a "game" why not go out and and do something about your enemies so you can enjoy the game more. Afterall it is about the "Challenge" of the game that makes it enjoyable. The okies should be viewed as a challenge..form a group to go out and grief them.

Also these post about the rules and players not allowed to pvp under certain restrictions go against what I understood about NS4. Isn't anyone supposed to be able to kill other faction members that are their enemies? Are we getting NS3 confused with 4 here? I thought the factions changed the rules of pvp in 4.

Æ · Post by Æ » Tue May 04, 2004 9:23 am

Start a hate group that lynches okies, can call it the okie slayer guild }: P lol

EDIT:
OOOO= Organized Okie Outrage Organization

ROFLMAO }: )

Alanthaleous · Post by **Alanthaleous** » Tue May 04, 2004 10:02 am

So okies have impunity in NS4 to grief players? :shock:

What is this about the statement being killed by an okie is like being killed by an NPC... Does this mean that you can not blame them as they are, with NPC status, immune to the punishment of DMs as they, as being NPCs are part of the development of the game designers? Jesus H Christ! What kind of game are you making devs?

Now every time I see an okie I hit the quikened step button and try to hit a zone line so I can log for 5 minutes... oh is this breaking a rule? TOUGH! :roll:

I like the PvP, but introducing planned griefing, for lack of a better term, makes me want to hural on my keyboard and find a new server, which I love this server til I read the words planned greifing, and hural again... :oops:

I think this module is a big hit... Or can be if you minus the okie clan, or at least take away thier impunity. Still the idea that the devs made this clan for the purpose of legal griefing makes me sick to my stomach... In fact it took me 2 hours to write this post as I had to clean my keyboard 3 times... :oops:

Shasz · Post by **Shasz** » Tue May 04, 2004 10:13 am

1: You don't state anyone's level, so there's no proof here. Nor is there a rule against this, only a guideline.

2-3: It's a known bug, sure, with a known workaround. Logoff, Logon, then respawn. Summons are a big part of a lot of classes. You can't tell people not to use them.

4: Get over it, its a pvp world with factions intentionally pitted against each other.

5: Roll up a paladin, I hear they're immune to fear and terror.

6: Ooh, you got sneak attacked while travelling the world unprepared for conflict. Go tell the Avendell watch to patroll farther outside the town border. Monsters also often appear on the other side of a zone transition. Be more prepared next time. Zoning back to Avendell would have been the wisest decision, and an easy one from the description of the situation, but instead you chose to remain and be a victim. And now try to be martyrs?

7: Your group fell prey to a bug through ignorance of the workaround. Proving he knew your group to be ignorant of the workaround and cost your group its equipment intentionally is going to be difficult. Your argument that the bug is well known is countered by the fact that the workaround is also posted in these forums and should be as equally well known.

You got beat, plain and simple. Do you think talking to a dragon and asking it to stop would cause it to go neutral? It doesn't sound like he repeatedly killed you or gained by your loss. He just killed enemies of his, perhaps in the spirit of his character if not in the spirit of yours.

It simply appears that you got beaten by a superior opponent. Common tactics in situations where one is faced by overwhelming enemy forces include surrender or flight. It sounds like you could have run away to a safe area (Avendell) by merely clicking on the zone transition again. Rather than avoid the conflict, you all chose to remain and be victims and attempt to be martyrs. Not a very wise decision IMO.

If you want to make the world safer, round up a posse and hunt down the Okie threat. Some of us like to play in a world with the threat of death and with player interaction that includes risk. Good and Evil, friend and foe isn't always clear cut. The intention of the factions being pitted against one another is clear indication that pvp will be prominent. If you want a friendly world, find one that doesn't include pvp, don't try to change ours. Yes, you can try, it's your right, but it's also my right to tell you to stop it. Some of us like the way the world is setup and came here because of it, not to try and change it.

And to whomever said people created characters but didn't choose to be victims, yes they did. By playing here, you choose to put yourself in a faction and be a potential victim to any of the opposing ones, and possibly to traitors of your own. It's a risk you chose to take by playing here, same as everyone else.

Chimaira · Post by **Chimaira** » Tue May 04, 2004 10:22 am

You obviously dont know what the bug(which is now fixed) could do exactly and when.
I have had my inventory cleaned out various times, without even hitting the respawn button, just by dying, not rezzed, not respawned, I saw my whole log filled with Lost item: (insert leet mage robes name here=p) even while still dead. So dont go saying "your ignorant, log out before respawning" because it works *most of the time* not always, you cannot say "If you logged out before respawning you would have lost nothing" because it simply aint true, you do not know wheter it will stop it, most just took the safe way, some of those who did this STILL lost their inventory(such as me, and it happened multiple times so its not "A once in a lifetime chance"). If he really did in fact abuse the bug to grief then Id say he deserves a ban, I guess its up to the DMs to decide wheter he did it on purpose or not tho.

Æ · Post by Æ » Tue May 04, 2004 10:25 am

I still think there should still be the old NS3 rule of no attacking someone engaged with an NPC enemy... Having an okie run up and kill you is no big deal when there's no respawn penalty, but if he runs up and kills you while you're fighting a monster, there's a chance that the monster will get the last hit at the last moment and you'll incur a respawn penalty, effectively from a PvP death

Alanthaleous · Post by **Alanthaleous** » Tue May 04, 2004 10:36 am

If you are a planar PC (all human subraces are planar) you incur exp loss in PvP as well as being raised...