Cleric concerns
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MasterYoda
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Flailer
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Opening up some realms to a cleric in one faction that are closed to another cleric in another faction in order to make up for unbalances in other class/race selections is just one way of achieving balance. There. Take a deep breath, play the game.
Flailer
NS Developer
None of us is as dumb as all of us.
NS Developer
None of us is as dumb as all of us.
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MasterYoda
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Lordy loo, talking about the roleplaying justification can be tiresome at times, but talking about balance is a nightmare than causes poor people like Metis to wake up in the middle of the night and scare her boyfriend when she screams "BIGSBEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!".... - Thats just not true I take a lot of sleeping pills so nothing wakes me up 
(Metis)
When it starts coming down to faction-vs-faction power, you might have noticed that the restricted PrCs really are the low-to-mediocre ones; RDD and PM are fine and dandy, and quite good, but they're nowhere near the sweepingly impactful hammer of, say, Shadowdancer. HiPS is one of the most powerful abilities on the server, and as such, many people play them. "Nerfing Shadowdancers" by making them limited to one faction really isn't "nerfing" them... it's just forcing the people who want to play SD to all be from one faction, which then gives that one faction a significant advantage by dominating Hide/MS, which is a fundemental mechanic of both PnP and NWN.
Then, when we start assigning the less fundementally themed PrCs to factions, we had to avoid the things which turn those normally less-powerful PrCs into monstrocities. For example, Palemaster was designed to be a class for mages who want some melee power or a meleer who wants some casting; throwing Monk into the mix makes them far too powerful because the people who designed PM in the first place never intended a Palemaster/Monk to even be possible if the DnD universe was a real world, even though it can be manufactured since everything is boiled down to numbers on paper. Likewise, no Shifter/Monks in TC, no Assassin/Rangers (or Druids) in SL, no RDD/Paladins as you pointed out in AO, no Rogue/CoT in NC... they destroy the "flavor" of a faction by making it about a single power-build in a faction rather than a nuance of a group of people.
And when it comes to restricting base classes, it's even worse... the NC/TC alliance, which compromises two entire factions, has not a single Sorcerer or Wizard between them. Sure, they have Bards, which means we didn't totally deny them the ability to at least use a small amount of arcane magic via their spell list or some scrolls, but even then, they have no members which can craft the scrolls those Bards use, and must in turn scavenge for things other factions take for granted. To deny them arcane magic and then start restricting domains is like finding a crippled orphan, stealing one of their crutches, and then shortening the other just enough to cause a funny-to-watch limp... without arcane magic, a faction needs every drop of divine magic to remain competitive. Yet another reason why Pally was removed from AO: LA is the faction associated with "any build, any alignment, any time," which they get in trade for no ally and no exclusive PrC. I used to call AO the "Last Alliance of the North" since before some sort of base class got the axe, there was basically no down side to being in AO.
Oh Lordy, children, you're causing Grandpa Yonwe to angry up the blood... I got to go take my nitroglycerine! Woo, son, woo!
(Metis)When it starts coming down to faction-vs-faction power, you might have noticed that the restricted PrCs really are the low-to-mediocre ones; RDD and PM are fine and dandy, and quite good, but they're nowhere near the sweepingly impactful hammer of, say, Shadowdancer. HiPS is one of the most powerful abilities on the server, and as such, many people play them. "Nerfing Shadowdancers" by making them limited to one faction really isn't "nerfing" them... it's just forcing the people who want to play SD to all be from one faction, which then gives that one faction a significant advantage by dominating Hide/MS, which is a fundemental mechanic of both PnP and NWN.
Then, when we start assigning the less fundementally themed PrCs to factions, we had to avoid the things which turn those normally less-powerful PrCs into monstrocities. For example, Palemaster was designed to be a class for mages who want some melee power or a meleer who wants some casting; throwing Monk into the mix makes them far too powerful because the people who designed PM in the first place never intended a Palemaster/Monk to even be possible if the DnD universe was a real world, even though it can be manufactured since everything is boiled down to numbers on paper. Likewise, no Shifter/Monks in TC, no Assassin/Rangers (or Druids) in SL, no RDD/Paladins as you pointed out in AO, no Rogue/CoT in NC... they destroy the "flavor" of a faction by making it about a single power-build in a faction rather than a nuance of a group of people.
And when it comes to restricting base classes, it's even worse... the NC/TC alliance, which compromises two entire factions, has not a single Sorcerer or Wizard between them. Sure, they have Bards, which means we didn't totally deny them the ability to at least use a small amount of arcane magic via their spell list or some scrolls, but even then, they have no members which can craft the scrolls those Bards use, and must in turn scavenge for things other factions take for granted. To deny them arcane magic and then start restricting domains is like finding a crippled orphan, stealing one of their crutches, and then shortening the other just enough to cause a funny-to-watch limp... without arcane magic, a faction needs every drop of divine magic to remain competitive. Yet another reason why Pally was removed from AO: LA is the faction associated with "any build, any alignment, any time," which they get in trade for no ally and no exclusive PrC. I used to call AO the "Last Alliance of the North" since before some sort of base class got the axe, there was basically no down side to being in AO.
Oh Lordy, children, you're causing Grandpa Yonwe to angry up the blood... I got to go take my nitroglycerine! Woo, son, woo!
~DM Yonwe
Lolth - Goddess of the Drow
Velsharoon - God of Undeath
Lolth - Goddess of the Drow
Velsharoon - God of Undeath
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Cthulhu Drega
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while you may see it as blanced and it may be in some aspects like the mage point nothing anyone sais will change my mind that NC needs the death and evil domains removed. as perium pointed out evil is rarely chosen and as sutch wont harm anyone by removing it from NC, same goes with good from the SL choices.
i would hope we get the chance for others to chime in before this is locked due to spam
on the subject of spam if you can please delete the spam that certian people are cluttering up this discussion with thx
i would hope we get the chance for others to chime in before this is locked due to spam
on the subject of spam if you can please delete the spam that certian people are cluttering up this discussion with thx
"There is no great genius without some touch of madness." - Seneca
"There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line." - Oscar Levant
"There's a fine line between genius and insanity. I have erased this line." - Oscar Levant
I have to disagree on one point--RDD is one of the top PRCs... Thanks to all the stat bonuses, immunities, increased AC, etc... an RDD is just as powerful as a WM (and less reliant on crits).... SD is distinctly second-rate for straight-up combat. RDD is not.
1) RDD, WM
3) SD
4) other PRCs
...
99) Harper Scout
1) RDD, WM
3) SD
4) other PRCs
...
99) Harper Scout
On one hand, yes, you can only be expected to nerf factions so far. On the other: Look what you've done to TC/NC. Both suffer from heavy restrictions, and neither is particularily competitive. The only reason we've managed to keep from being wiped out completely is the fact that we're able to work together to some extent, but even that is limited by the sheer distances between the factions. I understand there's a shortcut between the 2 in the works that'll help that situation, but even that's probably a long way down the list.
Do I support actions that make the less-able factions competitive? Absolutely. The problem is that there are 2 distinct schools of thought on how to do it. You can either broaden up what we have access to, though it's been clearly stated that that's not much of an option because we like our theme, just as all the other factions like theirs; ours are just more flavourfull. The other option is to nerf other factions a bit. I can see why most of you don't like that idea, but as I see it, it's got to be done.
Unless, of course, you'd all prefer to beef up the shifters and CoTs for us?
Do I support actions that make the less-able factions competitive? Absolutely. The problem is that there are 2 distinct schools of thought on how to do it. You can either broaden up what we have access to, though it's been clearly stated that that's not much of an option because we like our theme, just as all the other factions like theirs; ours are just more flavourfull. The other option is to nerf other factions a bit. I can see why most of you don't like that idea, but as I see it, it's got to be done.
Unless, of course, you'd all prefer to beef up the shifters and CoTs for us?
The DuFresne Family of Malencia
DrunkenGamers.net
DrunkenGamers.net
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P. Fricebottle
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I disagree with the CoT statement. You'd see it abused to heck and back if it wasn't an exclusive PrC. +1 saves every 2 levels, a nifty bosskill damage buff, fighter feats, full ab progression, 2 high saves...
While NC/TC may struggle sometimes, competitively speaking, we can't discount and say the classes just suck and that's why they're losing. My saves are high enough at 24 to roll a 1 and still succeed a wail/finger from a level 35ish mage. I threw in some monk levels (improved evasion) and now basically a mage's only hope to kill me is bigby's/direct damage IGMS or horrid.
So maybe if a faction is struggling, it might just not be the faction, it's classes, and restrictions, rather it might be the players in the faction. Alternatively it might be the players that DONT play the faction that cause a landslide in other directions.
While NC/TC may struggle sometimes, competitively speaking, we can't discount and say the classes just suck and that's why they're losing. My saves are high enough at 24 to roll a 1 and still succeed a wail/finger from a level 35ish mage. I threw in some monk levels (improved evasion) and now basically a mage's only hope to kill me is bigby's/direct damage IGMS or horrid.
So maybe if a faction is struggling, it might just not be the faction, it's classes, and restrictions, rather it might be the players in the faction. Alternatively it might be the players that DONT play the faction that cause a landslide in other directions.
Marius Blightweather - Paladin of Torm
Kyla Vash - Forest Avenger
Kyla Vash - Forest Avenger
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Death Dealer1
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Death Dealer1
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ok everyone take a deep breath and relax.
wow ppl get so emotional on both sides.
look however you wanna debate it cut and paste god info or just be plain childish with noob and p owned junk here is what i see from reading this whole thread .
1. TC and NC absolutely sucketh ! you require no more evidence then the score board in avendell and the number of total players in those factions.
2. MA also sucketh and the only saving grace in the entire faction is the PM, i mean damn if that aint the stupidest most boring faction to start in.
3. PPL are sick to death of playing NC and TC toons and getting smashed simply because of the way the faction is set up - ill admit some of the players in said factions are inexperienced pvp and choose that faction becasue of the goodness , holy or woodsman type rp character a classic favourites.
4. and cry all you want - PM is over powered say what u will - iam pink death dealer and was involved in some testing with ddog and others who is working on this pm stuff and the general agreement by him and all involved is that something needs doing to that PRC because for whatever reasons its overpowered here.
5. dont ask me how to do it , but put your hand up - and i ask u to be honest - if you arent already sick of other faction toons ( most often recently PM's from MA ) helping another faction get hold and defend relics ?? i mean in all seriousness there needs to be a substantial penalty for these action. This server has fairly active gods - now tell me why bane the MA god would sit around and let a person betray his faction and all his other loyal children to go help la for example i mean would not bane do something to that character?? same can be said for all the other gods in the past it was a SL thing where an la traitor was helping SL get relics would lathander truly sit by and let that person do this over and over again ??
6. LINKED TOO 5. i understand that part of the reason u can go traitor is that NS4 factions are not a strait - jacket, however all i see is massive issues that are really a joke, what about randomly having attempts made on a traitors life by hipsing assassins for SL ? or a band of zealous monks from NC whatever ATM ppl are making all these new PM's, u really think they gonna relic raid for MA ? used to be Monks in LA that then went traitor to help other factions - is anything beeing done about this issue ??
look a long winded post but hey - TC, and NC reallt do suck sorry and i understand the no mage thing and no rogue for tc etc but please ppl stop coming on the forumns insultign ppl intelligence by suggesting each faction is balanced - they clearly are not !
wow ppl get so emotional on both sides.
look however you wanna debate it cut and paste god info or just be plain childish with noob and p owned junk here is what i see from reading this whole thread .
1. TC and NC absolutely sucketh ! you require no more evidence then the score board in avendell and the number of total players in those factions.
2. MA also sucketh and the only saving grace in the entire faction is the PM, i mean damn if that aint the stupidest most boring faction to start in.
3. PPL are sick to death of playing NC and TC toons and getting smashed simply because of the way the faction is set up - ill admit some of the players in said factions are inexperienced pvp and choose that faction becasue of the goodness , holy or woodsman type rp character a classic favourites.
4. and cry all you want - PM is over powered say what u will - iam pink death dealer and was involved in some testing with ddog and others who is working on this pm stuff and the general agreement by him and all involved is that something needs doing to that PRC because for whatever reasons its overpowered here.
5. dont ask me how to do it , but put your hand up - and i ask u to be honest - if you arent already sick of other faction toons ( most often recently PM's from MA ) helping another faction get hold and defend relics ?? i mean in all seriousness there needs to be a substantial penalty for these action. This server has fairly active gods - now tell me why bane the MA god would sit around and let a person betray his faction and all his other loyal children to go help la for example i mean would not bane do something to that character?? same can be said for all the other gods in the past it was a SL thing where an la traitor was helping SL get relics would lathander truly sit by and let that person do this over and over again ??
6. LINKED TOO 5. i understand that part of the reason u can go traitor is that NS4 factions are not a strait - jacket, however all i see is massive issues that are really a joke, what about randomly having attempts made on a traitors life by hipsing assassins for SL ? or a band of zealous monks from NC whatever ATM ppl are making all these new PM's, u really think they gonna relic raid for MA ? used to be Monks in LA that then went traitor to help other factions - is anything beeing done about this issue ??
look a long winded post but hey - TC, and NC reallt do suck sorry and i understand the no mage thing and no rogue for tc etc but please ppl stop coming on the forumns insultign ppl intelligence by suggesting each faction is balanced - they clearly are not !