interesting...

solates · Post by **solates** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:31 am

So I am here playing around with my lowbie bard and get into a shout infomercial.

Apparently a pm is the ultimate tank has awesome summons...yet is not rated as undead for purposes of turn undead and spells.

Am I the only one who fails to understand how, since they have all the undead traits, that they are not indeed flagged as undead?

Because no class is supposed to be all mighty-a pm draws strength from being undead, so likewise I would think he would/should be scared of the 40th lvl cleric who can bish turn his but without blinking.

And how is it that pms get a lvl 55 summon that cannot be banished?

I know the gearsets(hell i came up with the base progression rate) while the gear will allow for some uberness, none of it has +25 summon levels.

So I will pare this rant down to 3 questions.
1. why is a palemaster after lvl 10 not flagged as undead.
2. where in any spell does it summon a lvl 55 mob.
3. why did they give the cheesiest of builds the capacity to summon a lvl 55 mob that cannot be banished, dispelled, or turned?

While NS has always been about an arms race(and ns4 is an arms race, albeit one that requires you to READ and pay attention to what gear your throwing on). Giving a cheesy prestige class uber summons seems sort of out of wack for DD and company. Its not even a background class. None of the factions worship undeath or necromancy.

I say flag pms as undead. Will be fun for the whole family.

Solates

Nemesis Revised · Post by **Nemesis Revised** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 12:59 am

there are ways you can defeat a PM even with his mighty summon. i've seen it trash Neversummer once but it's been beaten already. you just have to watch out for the possible ways (which i won't tell).

flagging a pm as undead doesn't align with what a palemaster really is.

if you have the propensity to fight epic mobs that are immune to sneak and crit. then the same goes when going pvp against palemaster builds...

Post by **Lokey** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:29 am

I don't have Libris Mortis, some I'm not even sure what Pale Master is supposed to be (or why arcanes get turning as a level 6 spell that is sooo much better than the level 8 spell they added in the same expansion to beef them vs. undead)

It's a splat book, so I guess it's overpowered out of the box...perfect for an expansion where everything needs to be better to sell it

I think it was inertia that made us not worry about adding HoU prestige classes, the SoU ones were fairly balanced. At the time there were only a few of us building, I hadn't even tried them out.

I wonder if we went with my vote to drop PM, WM, SD, RDD we could have a server that isn't packed 24/7? I'd much rather have a Lich transformation or turn someone into a real dragon (we have the technology to do so now).

Death Dealer1 · Post by **Death Dealer1** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 1:50 am

PM's aren't technically undead, Lich's are the step beyond where you become so.

the pm's summon gets to lvl 50 and that is only on your 30th lvl of PM. sorry guys but that master lich stays with you for a long long time.

the reason it cannot be dispelled is no one focuses on dispelling summons. dismissal does nothing against any of the PrC summons or epic dragon knight summon. banishment won't get rid of it as its not an outsider. WoF won't make it leave because the saves are higher than most ppl want to put in for it.

the Accomplice is by no means unbeatable. severaly times a few ppl have proven that you can beat it. its just a tough fight, as you would expect from any lvl 50 player or mob. the thing that makes it scary is that when your build is not made for heavy fighting this thing will eat your lunch and start dating your mom.

i would also like to add that the PM summon is the biggest summon because it is the only one that actually requires you to have 30 lvls in that class. the others are good at what they do but not as powerful because you don't need quite as much focus to become a master of the summon.

Nemesis Revised · Post by **Nemesis Revised** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:03 am

also take note, that reaping the benefits of PM takes patience. its when you get 10 levels or above when it starts kicking in. his other feats dnt really do much (the death touch and all); so this is a balancing factor.

and level 50 monster? well its pretty cool but you gotta be level 40 to get it lol. so it really is something worth investing in.

as for dimissing summons im not sure. i've seen boss mobs and sme shadarkai folk take out blackdevils, solars, baalors, even mummy lords with one spell.

example:

Black devil walks in a bunch of mobs.... few seconds later, he's not in the party list anymore

Post by **Sparky** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 2:11 am

Palemasters are not flagged as undead because they are not undead. They do not have all of an undead's characteristics, only some of them.

NWN Palemasters do not have:
1. Immunity to Mind affecting spells.
2. Immunity to poison.
3. Immunity to ability drain.
4. Immunity to level drain.
5. Immunity to disease.
6. Immunity to negative energy damage.
a. Healed by negative energy.
b. Harmed by positive energy.
7. Immunity to Death Magic.

If you want to give a Palemaster these added traits, then feel free to make them undead as well, otherwise, I'm afraid it isn't going to happen.

Post by **DeputyDog** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 8:59 am

Death Dealer1 wrote:PM's aren't technically undead, Lich's are the step beyond where you become so.

the pm's summon gets to lvl 50 and that is only on your 30th lvl of PM. sorry guys but that master lich stays with you for a long long time.

the reason it cannot be dispelled is no one focuses on dispelling summons. dismissal does nothing against any of the PrC summons or epic dragon knight summon. banishment won't get rid of it as its not an outsider. WoF won't make it leave because the saves are higher than most ppl want to put in for it.

the Accomplice is by no means unbeatable. severaly times a few ppl have proven that you can beat it. its just a tough fight, as you would expect from any lvl 50 player or mob. the thing that makes it scary is that when your build is not made for heavy fighting this thing will eat your lunch and start dating your mom.

i would also like to add that the PM summon is the biggest summon because it is the only one that actually requires you to have 30 lvls in that class. the others are good at what they do but not as powerful because you don't need quite as much focus to become a master of the summon.

Ahh solates back so soon and already pointing out flaws? We did miss you so.

Dragon knight and Mummy Lord sumons are still being tweaked but they shoul dot be as powerful as the pm becuase of the dedication required. They do get pretty good and hang just fine in the planes with the right spell focuses. As Death points out a pm is good for 2 things. His summon and tanking. He does not have alot of attacks and his wiz spells do not have a high enough dc to affect much except with damage and buffs.

I would love to do the lich transformation or dragon transformation as well.

I dont think anyone has ever tried to dismiss the summon or a balor with a lvl 40 mage/cleric focused on dismisal. It probably wont go off because the saves are too high and if so then we can look into balancing that out so there is a very slight chance. roll a 1-4 or something.

The summon is undead so all of the anti undead stuff does work on it.
The pm itself cannot be undead because of what sparky said about him not being a true undead. His body is grafted with dead parts not wholy dead.

BlkMamba · Post by **BlkMamba** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:34 pm

Death Dealer1 wrote:
the Accomplice is by no means unbeatable. severaly times a few ppl have proven that you can beat it. its just a tough fight, as you would expect from any lvl 50 player or mob. the thing that makes it scary is that when your build is not made for heavy fighting this thing will eat your lunch and start dating your mom.

DD1 is right here.....we put that theory to test on more than 1 occation, my Dire Mace wielder was able to beat down the monstous summons while being attacked by other people...died shortly afterwords

but none the less still was able to taker down, its not unstoppable

solates · Post by **solates** » Fri Jul 21, 2006 11:28 pm

just keeping you guys honest DD.

While 30 levels in a prestige class IS alot of dedication, no one would do it if it didnt have the prize at the end of it. Most people would do 30 caster/10 pm and go about their day, paying for the prestige class the way it was intended-the loss of caster levels, which means lack of damage and dispell attempts. With 30 pm they get the summons, which means they can eat other casters without much thought, and most alternate melee classes.

This is akin to the old argument of whether ecl races are balanced with non ecl classes with a lower xp per kill rate-at lvl 40 they are still more deadly than a non ecl class.

In this case the pm is more deadly because someone decided to make it where theres something worthwhile at the end(besides the stock armorclass gains).

Interesting.
Solates

MasterYoda · Post by **MasterYoda** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 6:29 pm

the pm summon is good but that's cause of the dedication.

I do think that if u are willing to commit totally to one thing it should be crazy as hell.

the dragonknight .... shouldn't be better.

black devil shouldn't either only needing 22 bg levels.

but I do think the sd summon and mummy dust need help.

pre wipe I had a level 24 ...

12 rouge 12 sd just for fun and I didn't see any difference in the summon at all....

same as the mummy dust summon. creat greater undead at level 24ish fully focoused is same as mummy dust.

I think those need a little work. but pm in general is a awesome class. and I have nothing but respect for people who have the patience to build one.

Nemesis Revised · Post by **Nemesis Revised** » Sat Jul 22, 2006 10:42 pm

i think the dragonknight is okay. except for the death slaad, it doesnt seem to be any better or at least at par with the baalor and solar. it doesnt even have trueseeing

the black devil is pretty good in pvp, but against planar mobs, it needs alot of support aside from its owner. it doesnt have high ac and gets easily mobbed when working alone.

solates · Post by **solates** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 4:45 pm

But that is the point.

PM is an already great class-it gives you armor boosts, some spells per day, and it gives the "almighty" sneak attack and crit immunity.

Which btw is on NONE of the gear.

However. IF crit immune and sneak attack immunity did not come till 30th lvl, then yeah i can see boosting anything that they get.

The class was not intended to be a 30 lvl class, it was intended to make you sacrifice 10 levels for the crit and sneak immunities and then you go back to your core class to make an actual viable character.

But give a player a bone(ie the summons) then yeah they will be a boring class, the class they have the most levels in was really never intended to go that high.

And if the character is gimped in some other department(lower spells per day or lower dcs) then voila! thats what was intended to begin with.

And if there are zones that you HAVE to be a pm 10
+ to solo there, then some serious rebalancing issues need to come to play. The game already spawns more if the parties ecl is higher, making the mobs with no actual reasoning is ughh.

Sneak attack for example. Sneak attack comes from rogue. Not animal, not elemental, but the class rogue. And if there is a plane of elementals that can all sneak attack for 10d6 damage, then you would assume the material plane is a goner anyways as soon as they rift in. Not to mention they probably have a fighters build but the feat 10d6 sneak attack tacked on.

Which is awesome, soon as i can go and buy a book that applies feat: sneak attack 10d6 to my toon:)

Solates

P. Fricebottle · Post by **P. Fricebottle** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 5:38 pm

How about make PMs considered "True Undead" at level 20, 25, or 30. Whatever you prefer.

algol333 · Post by **algol333** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 7:32 pm

if the PM class was not meant to have 30 lvls of it taken then why is it not capped like the harper scout.......

also noone is forced to build a PM if you dont like then dont play it.....

every class should have str's and weaknesses...

while the PM makes an awesome wall i have yet to see a PM build that can really do dmg...PM's have awful spell DC's and horrible saves...

and on the summon issue you dont get the death avatar until lvl 40 so its not like there is a ton of lvl 30 PM summons running around....

i also think making the PM a true undead would upset people just as much if not more... true undeads have a quite a long list of immunities.....

PMs are not unstoppable they just take a while to whittle down which is how it should be...

btw i hear alot of people saying the PM is a cheesy build ok fine it is what build isnt cheezy? i think clerics who take 3or 4 rogue lvls r just as cheesy...maybe all PRC classes should be banned...
lets just all make lvl 40 fighters and call it a day.....
lets lay off the PM if someone wants to build a toon that cant kill anything and takes forever to lvl just let them do it....

Palemasters never did anything to anyone because they cant their AB is to low So lets pick on the harper scout for awhile... jeesh....

ATI · Post by **ATI** » Mon Jul 24, 2006 8:09 pm

Better idea, if we are saying that people who dedicate a WHOLE lot of time into one class deserve to get great benefits, the same should be true for other classes.

Pure monks....they deserve something (especially since monk is certainly a much LONGER grind when done in pure form).

Clerics maybe not so much

Rangers, Fighters, Barbarians, they deserve something because remaining dedicated to these classes is EXTREMELY difficult to do.