the updates are nice and now lets players have greater chances of surviving a bigby. but now it's also made it harder for a mage to support a party, especially in planes.
is there a way for the bigbie natural ranks to apply only when the target is a player (to make it not too abusive in pvp) while allowing item ranks (such as rings) to still apply if the target are monsters? (to make it effective party support against high ranked mobs)
insight: with the new changes, do mages still need to rack up on concentration and spellcraft items? it seems they dontneed it anymore. it somehow defeats what mages have to wear. they'd probably hve to rely on discipline rings now since the new bigbies lets mobs get to them and have a greater probability to do something nasty like disarm or KD
The new bigbies...
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Nemesis Revised
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The new bigbies...
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Kind of a catch 22.
If we put all the high lvl mobs skills on par with a player of that lvl the items are still only used for concentrate to get a spell off if under attack, and spellcraft for saving throw bonuses.
If we make it so that the items stack for the checks vs mobs then will those mobs be unable to save vs the spells.
We will look into it, but keep providing feedback with findings from gameplay. Maybe keep track of specific mobs and if bigbies affects them at all or some of the time.
If we put all the high lvl mobs skills on par with a player of that lvl the items are still only used for concentrate to get a spell off if under attack, and spellcraft for saving throw bonuses.
If we make it so that the items stack for the checks vs mobs then will those mobs be unable to save vs the spells.
We will look into it, but keep providing feedback with findings from gameplay. Maybe keep track of specific mobs and if bigbies affects them at all or some of the time.
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Death Dealer1
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the_binary_soul
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I haven't been to the planes yet but bigbies seemed to do fine against amazons.
Is it possible for people to simply not rely on bigbies so much and still be an effective mage? Given what it was like before, I feel it was as much Cheese as the Cleric Undeath's buff. Maybe this is simply an issue of learning to play without an overly powerful spell on your side
Is it possible for people to simply not rely on bigbies so much and still be an effective mage? Given what it was like before, I feel it was as much Cheese as the Cleric Undeath's buff. Maybe this is simply an issue of learning to play without an overly powerful spell on your side
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not quite. if you experience playing a high level mage and not have the bigby do effectively at least to support your companions, then it's tough luck.
atm the bigbies seem to be based on concentration spellcraft ranks. i've seen some melee builds put mage levels into it coz they can use the bigbies to stop mobs. why not just make the bigby scale as with mage level to add up to the dc? that way, wiz/sorcs can still focus on their levels and not be at par with sme melee-mage build who has concentration and spellcraft ranks at par with a purer mage build.
atm the bigbies seem to be based on concentration spellcraft ranks. i've seen some melee builds put mage levels into it coz they can use the bigbies to stop mobs. why not just make the bigby scale as with mage level to add up to the dc? that way, wiz/sorcs can still focus on their levels and not be at par with sme melee-mage build who has concentration and spellcraft ranks at par with a purer mage build.
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Or (gasp) boost the ability of mages to do damage?
We had an event earlier today where I was able to easily kill a level 36 mage with a level 28 melee character. At no time was he ever a threat to me. He KD'd me with bigby maybe twice, other than that, he never was able to stop me or slow me down, and he couldn't dish damage nearly as fast as I could. Mages are supposed to be powerful death-dealers...right now their power comes from buffing and summoning.
Kama Kaze (TSS)
Level 28 Fighter/Monk/Weaponsmaster
We had an event earlier today where I was able to easily kill a level 36 mage with a level 28 melee character. At no time was he ever a threat to me. He KD'd me with bigby maybe twice, other than that, he never was able to stop me or slow me down, and he couldn't dish damage nearly as fast as I could. Mages are supposed to be powerful death-dealers...right now their power comes from buffing and summoning.
Kama Kaze (TSS)
Level 28 Fighter/Monk/Weaponsmaster
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yep atm that's how i see mages now they've become party-support. their spells are meant more for offensive rather than defensive (which is meant for druids anc clerics).
if we see their lineup of spells, we see them more for summoning and paralyzing nowadays.
if not change bigby, how about giving other spells a chance to be played to give a more offensive role for mages aside from the igms tradition?
if we see their lineup of spells, we see them more for summoning and paralyzing nowadays.
if not change bigby, how about giving other spells a chance to be played to give a more offensive role for mages aside from the igms tradition?
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Horrid Wilting seems to be pretty underpowered compared to what it should be. Mages should have great AOE stuff at high level... all they've got is cruddy firestorm (never does damage to anything), Wilting (rarely more than 80 hp), and seeker spells (firebrand, igms, etc). Oh, and Wail, but instadeath and damage-dealing are two different things.
My understanding is that Hellball and Greater Ruin aren't too hot because they're easy to save against, especially with Evasion (which it seems like half the server has). Why not boost the base DCs for the saves on them some, or make Hellball partly non-reflex save (reflex for the fire & electricity, fort for sonic, will for divine, etc)?
I should stop now, I'm TC and trying to get arcane stuff boosted
Oh well, Mielikki's the only one in TC who can kill me....
My understanding is that Hellball and Greater Ruin aren't too hot because they're easy to save against, especially with Evasion (which it seems like half the server has). Why not boost the base DCs for the saves on them some, or make Hellball partly non-reflex save (reflex for the fire & electricity, fort for sonic, will for divine, etc)?
I should stop now, I'm TC and trying to get arcane stuff boosted
Oh well, Mielikki's the only one in TC who can kill me....Mages are tanks; meleers are infantry. A tank can demolish wave after wave of troops, smash buildings, and bring a whole battalion of paratroopers to a halt; but catch a tank without support, and a single soldier with a hand grenade can walk right up, climb up, and kill everyone in it without a threat against him.
In other words, travel in packs... we designed it so that places in areas of CR 25+ aren't impossible, but can't be solo'ed. Fight in a division, men!
In other words, travel in packs... we designed it so that places in areas of CR 25+ aren't impossible, but can't be solo'ed. Fight in a division, men!
~DM Yonwe
Lolth - Goddess of the Drow
Velsharoon - God of Undeath
Lolth - Goddess of the Drow
Velsharoon - God of Undeath
A tank can demolish wave after wave of troops, smash buildings, and bring a whole battalion of paratroopers to a halt;
The problem is that mages don't do that very well right now from what I've seen of their damage spells. Right now they function more like combat engineers, who can do some of the same things, but in a different and less killing way.
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Death Dealer1
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what i do when i'm lvling is buff the crap outta myself(as most mage buffs are self only) then summon a big bag of rotting flesh(mummy dust is way weak compared to all the other summons) and then wait for everyone else to get me xp. my mage can't solo planar mobs that are all alone as i can't deal out enough damage to kill them. i find it hard to fire all my spells as they are either immune with evasion or i can't slow them down because their saves are high enough to ignore most others. they chew thru my defenses and my summon and leave me in a pool of my own blood....how am i to live without letting other ppl kill for me?
if i didn't do it...someone else would have.
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Flailer
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Not to pass the buck too much, but the source of many of these problems are that all your spells (except for the 5 epic ones) you get by level 18. But, then Bioware made an add-on that allows you to get up to level 40. So now, those same spells are supposed to be effective for another 20 levels? Sure, your DC increases, but the damage output doesn't really.
So, while the spells scale decently up to about level 25 or so, after that, they start running out of gas.
We'll be the first to admit that probably our whole spell system needs a complete revisiting. As Lokey always says, probably the best approach would be to do them all at once so you can have a comprehensive, balanced reworking. But, then reality sets in - that's a pretty massive undertaking. So, we find ourselves doing a spell line at a time.
We're constantly debating internally spell changes and your DMs that watch you are probably some of your biggest proponents. We've got some ideas on how to scale the spells a bit more and some of those ideas will come into play with the pure class stuff.
Until then, specific suggestions, examples of stats, case studies of spells effectiveness are probably your best bets to get changes going.
But, as always, thanks for playing!
So, while the spells scale decently up to about level 25 or so, after that, they start running out of gas.
We'll be the first to admit that probably our whole spell system needs a complete revisiting. As Lokey always says, probably the best approach would be to do them all at once so you can have a comprehensive, balanced reworking. But, then reality sets in - that's a pretty massive undertaking. So, we find ourselves doing a spell line at a time.
We're constantly debating internally spell changes and your DMs that watch you are probably some of your biggest proponents. We've got some ideas on how to scale the spells a bit more and some of those ideas will come into play with the pure class stuff.
Until then, specific suggestions, examples of stats, case studies of spells effectiveness are probably your best bets to get changes going.
But, as always, thanks for playing!
Last edited by Flailer on Mon Jul 10, 2006 7:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
Flailer
NS Developer
None of us is as dumb as all of us.
NS Developer
None of us is as dumb as all of us.
mmmm...... *vomits in discust of the bigby changes* 
Fatzo
Resident Glutton and Hand of the Legendary Brethren
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Resident Glutton and Hand of the Legendary Brethren
http://thelegendarybrethren.forumsplace.com/
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This is mostly biowares fault.
Several feats are missing from an epic mages options.
intensify spell-doubles and then maximizes a spells damage dice.
Enhance spell-spell gains another 10 or 5 damage dice.
Improved metamagic-metamagic feats require 1 less level to use.
Improved spellcasting-adds a spell slot 1 higher than you highest spell slot(lvl 10 11 12 etc.)
Without these feats or the actual epic spell creation process(prc did an ok job of this) then the mage has to fall back on what the above poster said-trying to make spells that are capped at 20 usable in epic levels.
PRC did do a decent job of adding some of these feats into the game.
They also created a way to attain epic spells that did not require burning a feat for a pale comparison of what epic spells are capable of.
Unfortanetly the prc also has some really awful prestige classes(lich-archlich comes to mind as way unbalanced).
I forget if theres a way to select only parts of the prc to use in a module, but if we could just get the epic spell-related feats and the epic spell part of it that would definately add a ton of options to the game.
Solates
Several feats are missing from an epic mages options.
intensify spell-doubles and then maximizes a spells damage dice.
Enhance spell-spell gains another 10 or 5 damage dice.
Improved metamagic-metamagic feats require 1 less level to use.
Improved spellcasting-adds a spell slot 1 higher than you highest spell slot(lvl 10 11 12 etc.)
Without these feats or the actual epic spell creation process(prc did an ok job of this) then the mage has to fall back on what the above poster said-trying to make spells that are capped at 20 usable in epic levels.
PRC did do a decent job of adding some of these feats into the game.
They also created a way to attain epic spells that did not require burning a feat for a pale comparison of what epic spells are capable of.
Unfortanetly the prc also has some really awful prestige classes(lich-archlich comes to mind as way unbalanced).
I forget if theres a way to select only parts of the prc to use in a module, but if we could just get the epic spell-related feats and the epic spell part of it that would definately add a ton of options to the game.
Solates