Item Level Restrictions (herein ILR)

Sir Sean · Post by **Sir Sean** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 10:22 am

Er... the merchant is selling Con gloves? We'll have to double-check that...
all of the merchants should be selling Str gloves now. Thanks.

EDIT: As for more granular ILR, it will be considered. Everything said on the boards or the bugtracker is considered.

Sir Sean, DM Starknight
Oghma, God of Knowledge

ATI · Post by **ATI** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 3:55 pm

Here are some of my suggestions to modifying ILR's

1: Decrease some of the ILR's for items that clearly aren't lvl 9 items. Fore example...my ring of strength +3... i would say thats a lvl 9 item. My ring of health which adds +3 to heal skill. (thats it). This shouldn't be a lvl 9 item. Mainly because skills are things to help you get through some of the smaller parts of the game. Your stats determine wether or not you die, wether you save against important things like disease, a potentially devestating blow, or something to that effect. My heal skill will never be as important as having my strength +3 (strength does so much more for me). So, maybe we can decrease teh ILR's on some of the items in order to have them reflect the importance of such items.

2: Making more items with mundane (lvl 1-4) spells as x/day effects. Scratching heal and wound spells, I think more items should be incorporated that have spells like Invis once per day as a lvl 5 item, or a Haste boot once per day as a lvl 7-8 item. Most of the items i've seen so far have little or no magical enchantment which begs the question, Is NS4 a magic deprived world? If it is, then i need to change my ILR posts, but if its not supposed to be a magic deprived world, then maybe adding some more magic into the term Magic item would be helpful.

3. The major thing I hear players complaining about is that ILRsseems to have no apparent logic to the way they have been incorporated. My ring example in point one is an excellent parallel to this situation. Another example, easily, is the dispersion of damage increments on items. My lvl 5 arrows deal 1d6 damage, but I have to wait 4 levels to make that damage turn into 1d8. Thats a little unfair. Especially considering combat casters can add enchantments up the wazoo to make their weapons do more than a piddly 2 extra damage at max by lvl 9 (1d6 and 1d8 at maximum the difference is 6-8 which equals 2) I think maybe there should be some more enchantments on weapons to balance this out, maybe make lvl 5 arrows also deal 2 points of fire damage and lvl 9 arrows deal 2 points of fire AND 2 points of acid. That is seemingly small but then your damage dispersion is better. With this I have at lvl 5 a possibility of dealing 1d6+2 damage and at lvl 9 1d8 +4 damage. This sort of minor tweak doesn't really take away from the game or destroy the mechanics of NS4. It simply makes a weapon portray obvious benefits at higher levels. (In my current example the maximum damage of a 1d6+2 arrow is 8 and a max damage of a lvl 9 arrow would be 1d8+4 , 12 that is a 4 lvl damage difference that doesn't really offset the original damage increment (which at current is 2, look at the math above) from (1d)6-(1d)8 which = 2 to to (1d)6+2 - (1d)8+4 thats 8-12 which is 4 total damage more per hit).

It also makes sense....a lvl 9 char should have some kind of cool magical item that deal exponentialy more damage than a lvl 5 archer. And a lvl 5 archer should have some minor magical effect that makes them better than a lvl 1-4. THis also would set apart very clear distinctions between the items. This is in my opinion the best way to get players to agree with current ILR's and still see obvious benefits from leveling up.

Lets face it no player is going to get excited at lvl 9 that they can FINALLY use that ring that adds +3 to heal checks. They also wouldn't be excited to have their arrows go from 1d6 to 1d8. Add a little magic on there like i stated above and suddenly characters, I think, will be happy with ILRs.

SOme more thought needs to be done on ILR's there are obvious imbalances within the items, and they should be discussed. 1) Skills never are the same as core stats so they should be treated completely differently and on different ILR scales, and 2) there should be a blatantly obvious increase in item power/strength/magic when you hit the next plateau of item level. Moving from 1d6 to a depressing 1d8 damage over the course of four levels isn't a motivation to get players to lvl and it has a potential of pissing players off. Addign a little more spice to the items can offset both of these problems.

Thanks and I hope these suggestions are considered

And to those who want to flame me about ILR's, okay, but I have one thing to say, Game On :twisted:

sep caldessian · Post by **sep caldessian** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 4:16 pm

well i cant say i agree 100%

i agree on the rings being +x to a skill as being kinda worthless, but you never know when you are 1 or 2 points away from disarming a deadly trap, or opening that valuable chest...and you wish you would have that +3 to disarm and open lock

i really dont see what the fuss is over the extra damage on weapons. going from 1d6 to 1d8 is an improvement, i guess im just used to playing places where youre lucky to find a +2 weapon at level 15, so the current layout is like a smorgasboard for me...but i can see were NS3 players would consider it a slap in the face. its all a matter of perspective.

It also makes sense....a lvl 9 char should have some kind of cool magical item that deal exponentialy more damage than a lvl 5 archer. And a lvl 5 archer should have some minor magical effect that makes them better than a lvl 1-4. THis also would set apart very clear distinctions between the items. This is in my opinion the best way to get players to agree with current ILR's and still see obvious benefits from leveling up.

i disagree here. being a level shouldnt entitle you to anything, let alone an exponential increase in ability. especially sine the toolset values are 1d4, d6, d8, d10, and d12, with 2d6 being the highest single addition to a weapon's damage. if d8 is at 9... are we talking 2d6 blud + 2d6 slash +2d6 pierce +2d6 divine at level 30? thats over kill.

ATI · Post by **ATI** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 7:07 pm

Under NS3 its under kill. However, That doesn't matter, I gave you a simple mathematic rubric. 4 total damage increase over four levels...makes sense to me.

Furthermore, I don't know what kind of world NS 4 is supposed to be, but I assume its supposed to be an equal lvl of magic and non-magic.

ALSO, if you ever read the epic handbook, 8d6 isn't overkill on a weapon at lvl 30, when your enemies will be having Anti magic fields and what not...but regardless of that, 8d6 thats a maximum of 40 per hit WITHOUT enemy buffs at CR 30 that will reduce the damage. It seems more than likely to me that 40 damage per hit will get whittled down to 22-24 when resistances, immunities, and buffs get added into the equation.

Its great you disagree with me, but you haven't really given a reason why having 8d6 damage on a weapon at lvl 30 is bad.... so? Even if the players aren't entitled to have better items at higher levels, okay.... that also works in the reverse..... Would you be happy playing with starting gear till you hit lvl 20? probably not. Would you be happy with a +2 longsword with 1d8 additional damage at lvl 20? Probably not...and you shouldn't why? because the monsters will DEFINITELY be better equiped than that, and you won't be able to compete with them.

The Dev's have no compulsion to do what I'm asking, I'm simply stating the facts as pertaining to what I know at this point. Players are showing unrest because the item progression is not rewarding. Its true the dev's can ignore the problem, but then again, the players can ignore the dev's and stop playing( this shouldn't happen!!! ).

I of all people don't want to see that happening, but if you think the players aren't entitled to something exponentially better after four level progressions, you're simply wrong. Look in a cleric spell book, after four level progressions they get two new spell levels they can cast.... I think thats an expected entitlement which also is monumental and exponential. As you get stronger in ANY DnD universe things get better for the players item wise in order to fight harder mobs(I'm not saying nothing gets better...). Think of it like this..... most regular DnD universes go for only 20 lvls (at which point they should retire or become epic), that means 4 lvls of progression is 1/5 the total career life of a character in a regular DnD universe. I don't know about you, but as you get better and get more seasoned at adventuring it makes logical sense that spending that much time, in an AVERAGE campaign should yield higher payouts in item usefulness.

Im not asking for +5 weapons at lvl 20. What I'm asking for is at least something a little bit more monumental when you reach your next level plateau. a 1d6 damage arrow moving to 1d8 damage after lvl 9 is a little disappointing at best, for at least what we are used to. Im not asking for NS3, I'm asking for logic. Thats all.

Thanks for playing though

Alexiagold · Post by **Alexiagold** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 8:49 pm

ATI you forget two things. One, fighters get more attacks as they level, hence even if you fixed all weapons to say a dagger, then a high level fighter does 4-5 times the damage (plus they get STR). Next up, your class abilities increase your damage, weapon spec, AA get higher enchantments, etc. Everything about your character increases the damage you do, you don't need additional increases to your weapons.

For example, I was partied with chaos (a cleric) today, and buffed up, he meleed the Dragon Queen of AO for oever 140 damage a round, I could only do 120 max, for 5 rounds from spells before I started using weaker and weaker spells. Chaos btw is Easy (green) to me, for a comparison of levels. So no I completely disagree with you. Another thing, criticals, a scyther who gets 4 more damage a level = 20 more damage a level on a crit (WM), gee if you let that happen casters will need a HUGE boost in damage. Anyway, see my point?

Sagil · Post by **Sagil** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 9:42 pm

Items should not define a character's power. I prefere low-magic worlds in general, it gives you a better "feel" for your characters abilities, i.e. my fighter hits because he's well trained in combat, not because he has this super +12 greatsword. A slight increase in power spread out over the levels is nice, as it always feels good to find new and better equipment, but it's just a matter of adjustment to get used to smaller steps.
Also it makes some spells and feats etc. usefull, i.e. magic weapon won't be useless by the time you get it because everyone got weapons with better permanent effects anyway, same for haste and lightning speed feat. :roll:

bongoblue · Post by **bongoblue** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 10:02 pm

Hmm. I can see ATI's point.

But, taking weapon specialization for a fighter... there are so many skills and feats possible, I may select a character path that doesn't include weapon specialization. Only 1 or 2 of the ones I have started have it, and all of them are fighters.

As for magic levels, I prefer a mid-magic world, or high magic world.

Much of the Saga type stories I've read, both present day fictional and mythological from ancient times, shows some high power magic weapons dealing blows to someone/some being. Of course, the more powerful the weapon, the mightier the Hero or Heroine must be to weiled it, or pick it up.

Even Jason and the Argonauts had help. I prefer mine to be in my weapons, rather than making an appeal to the gods. They might be taking a nap, or having a picnic lunch with friends, and don't want to be disturbed.

ATI · Post by **ATI** » Wed Apr 28, 2004 11:14 pm

NO one is really answering what I'm saying though...I'm not talking about a general increase of magic items to have "+12 longswords" or anything like that. I'm also not talking about changing items to the point where the item defines the character. no one, as of yet can explain why adding 2 fire damage to a weapon at lvl 5 and having 2 fire and 2 acid damage at lvl 9 is a bad thing.

I think the reason why no one can is because it is so miniscule its not something that would concern or really upset the game dynamics. Thats a good thing! that means that in some way my plan is implementable.

Now please, don't continue to generalize my statements, Im not advocating +12 greatswords of Diablo's Furious Death. I'm asking for a small increase in the damage increments in our current weapons. That's all. Read my math section, its strikingly handsome, and it makes sense too

!

If someone can explain why adding a simple 2 fire damage at lvl 5 and adding 2 fire and 2 acid at lvl 9 is bad (with obvious increments at later levels) then I'll shut up. I promise. You give me why thats bad, and I'm done.

The problem is you can't. There isn't a reason you can come up with because there isn't one. Adding a total of only 2 damage at lvl 5 only amounts to exactly that 2 damage extra per hit. On a fighter that is 2 extra damage a round. An A ranger thats 4 per round with rapid shot. On a lvl 9 fighter its a measly 8 extra damage a round, and a Ranger only 12 (lvl nine has a total of 4[2fire 2 acid] damage increase) with rapid shot.

So lets clear some things up for a moment. Quote me exactly, I never said anything about overpoewring any items, and I never said a thing about making weapons monolithically crazy. In fact Im a staunch advocate of the YDB haterz club. Please someone tell me why my small damage increments don't work, preferably a DM or a Dev. If you can... I'll shut up. If not...please tell us why its infeasible.

Sagil · Post by **Sagil** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 1:40 am

you haven't really given a reason why having 8d6 damage on a weapon at lvl 30 is bad

... because this would more than double the ammount of damage you normally do? Just seems a bit extreme to me..

An increase of 2 elemental damage every 4 levels seems more reasonable to me, provided that's the only increase (such that at lvl 40 you might have a sword with + 5 fire, + 5 cold, +5 acid and +5 sonic OR a sword +5, but not both..). Elemental damage can be "soaked" more easily and might make the elemental resistance feats more useful (are there and 5/- fire resist etc. items? I'd hope not, and haven't seen any yet..). :roll:

AndrewCarr · Post by **AndrewCarr** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 1:55 am

I'd say by lvl40 you should have some somewhat custom item that's pretty good. But i think it could be toned down some depending on mob difficulty. But at lvls5-10 some increases are really needed imo. So have diminishing returns. Starts off pretty good, since you really really need it then, and then have it increase still but just not as much. So you could maybe have a +5 weapon with +10 elemental dmg and other stuff at higher lvls. This could be toned down for scythes too i suppose, but that'd only make greatswords better.

ATI · Post by **ATI** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 2:30 am

The epic elemental resistances alone would soak up elemental damage pretty fast. ( I think its 10/- against one element of your choice). Still the small increments seem to be the best way to bridge the gap from lvl restriction to level restriction.

sep caldessian · Post by **sep caldessian** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 9:53 am

ATI wrote:Under NS3 its under kill. However, That doesn't matter, I gave you a simple mathematic rubric. 4 total damage increase over four levels...makes sense to me.

Furthermore, I don't know what kind of world NS 4 is supposed to be, but I assume its supposed to be an equal lvl of magic and non-magic.

ALSO, if you ever read the epic handbook, 8d6 isn't overkill on a weapon at lvl 30, when your enemies will be having Anti magic fields and what not...but regardless of that, 8d6 thats a maximum of 40 per hit WITHOUT enemy buffs at CR 30 that will reduce the damage. It seems more than likely to me that 40 damage per hit will get whittled down to 22-24 when resistances, immunities, and buffs get added into the equation.

right, but im talking about items purchased from the smithy, not all items in general. if a blacksmith can create a weapon that does different types of damage like that, then whats the fun in finding those types of items after a long hard boss battle? also you arent figuring in the STR modifiers that will be added by some characters by level 30, giving a flat damage boost on all successfull hits. the keen property and imp crit feats give a better chance for multiplying damage as well (at least doubling, some are x3 through x5).

Its great you disagree with me, but you haven't really given a reason why having 8d6 damage on a weapon at lvl 30 is bad.... so?

not just having, but being able to purchase such a weapon at any time frim a shop. items of that caliber should be reserved for DM events or hard boss drops or the like, IMO.

Even if the players aren't entitled to have better items at higher levels, okay.... that also works in the reverse..... Would you be happy playing with starting gear till you hit lvl 20? probably not. Would you be happy with a +2 longsword with 1d8 additional damage at lvl 20? Probably not...and you shouldn't why? because the monsters will DEFINITELY be better equiped than that, and you won't be able to compete with them.

well thats a pretty skewed comparison, but i see your point.

however, i feel this mod stresses team play more than before, so having a party of 4 doing an extra 1d8 would be similar to a single player doing 4d8 extra. if you overload the weapons and items, when people band together to fight creatures, they will have a cake walk, then the monsters need beefed, then the solo players will complain that they are too hard....its a balancing nightmare and i dont envy anyone trying to even the sides.

and yes, i do like mods where getting a +2 at level 15 means something. i like lower magic because it lets the class abilities come out.

The Dev's have no compulsion to do what I'm asking, I'm simply stating the facts as pertaining to what I know at this point. Players are showing unrest because the item progression is not rewarding. Its true the dev's can ignore the problem, but then again, the players can ignore the dev's and stop playing( this shouldn't happen!!! ).

I of all people don't want to see that happening, but if you think the players aren't entitled to something exponentially better after four level progressions, you're simply wrong. Look in a cleric spell book, after four level progressions they get two new spell levels they can cast.... I think thats an expected entitlement which also is monumental and exponential. As you get stronger in ANY DnD universe things get better for the players item wise in order to fight harder mobs(I'm not saying nothing gets better...). Think of it like this..... most regular DnD universes go for only 20 lvls (at which point they should retire or become epic), that means 4 lvls of progression is 1/5 the total career life of a character in a regular DnD universe. I don't know about you, but as you get better and get more seasoned at adventuring it makes logical sense that spending that much time, in an AVERAGE campaign should yield higher payouts in item usefulness.

if players leave because the items arent "rewarding" enough then i say bye bye, have fun. ill still be here roleplaying and having fun developing my character and participating in the story. thats the reward i want for playing. leaving a mod because the items arent uber enough is a sign of munchkinism, and munchkins leaving a server is always good.

items should not be expected. they should be given to those who deserver them, whether by defeating a boss, playing in a dm session, driving the story, etc.

Im not asking for +5 weapons at lvl 20. What I'm asking for is at least something a little bit more monumental when you reach your next level plateau. a 1d6 damage arrow moving to 1d8 damage after lvl 9 is a little disappointing at best, for at least what we are used to. Im not asking for NS3, I'm asking for logic. Thats all.

Thanks for playing though

well as stated before, one of the hardest tasks for a dev is balancing items with the encounters. they just cant start raising damage on weapons without re-tweaking nearly ALL of the enemies, else there will be less challenge (and people on here have already said its too easy to level and whatnot) and ultimatley, less fun.

thank you for your input.

Alexiagold · Post by **Alexiagold** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 2:11 pm

BTW level 16 weapons tend to do additional 3dX damage. Some have done as much as 2d6 physical 1d10 elemental. Might even have been a 4d6 weapon. So actually, the weapons are there ATI, you just haven't found them yet.

Edit:
If the trend continues 6d6 or 8d6 weapons might exist at level 40. So there you go, you get 8d6 weapons at level 40.

DrakhanValane · Post by **DrakhanValane** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 2:16 pm

It seems to me you're just trying to turn NS4 into NS3. The point of lesser increments is to add value to the increases. As I mentioned in another thread... please wait until you found that NS4 is impossible with things as they are before suggesting to make 8d6 weapons. If you do find it impossible, try different tactics. Try having a support caster buff you. Haste, Greater Magic Weapon, Flame Blade, keen edge... there are tons of buffs they can give you. :)

Genin Far · Post by **Genin Far** » Thu Apr 29, 2004 2:37 pm

It also makes sense....a lvl 9 char should have some kind of cool magical item that deal exponentialy more damage than a lvl 5 archer. And a lvl 5 archer should have some minor magical effect that makes them better than a lvl 1-4. THis also would set apart very clear distinctions between the items. This is in my opinion the best way to get players to agree with current ILR's and still see obvious benefits from leveling up.

sep caldessian wrote:i disagree here. being a level shouldnt entitle you to anything, let alone an exponential increase in ability. especially sine the toolset values are 1d4, d6, d8, d10, and d12, with 2d6 being the highest single addition to a weapon's damage. if d8 is at 9... are we talking 2d6 blud + 2d6 slash +2d6 pierce +2d6 divine at level 30? thats over kill.

I agree since a level 10 Wiz still only has a max of 40 HP (+/- Con Bonus which most non pvp oriented wizzies have a negative on). So the difference between a 6 and an 8 is significant on a crit.

I would also posit an idea of removing ILRs completely in favor of an xp penalty based system (works in other MMOGs)

Example: a 13 yearold finds a rocket launcher (a baby was used in another post, so allow me to license) and shoots it at a neighborhood dog that he dislikes. Upon the death of the animal, the child learns that pulling the trigger and aiming can be devastating 2XP is then awarded to the delinquent, but not much more (without some type of instruction it would take them quite a while of blowing things up before he would see some effect of the "education"). IF the rocket launcher was fired by a somewhat trained soldier the learning would be more of the effect of "Ok if I shoot this directly at my target it hits low due to gravity/wind/whatever so I may need to aim a little higher or lead next time." awarding him a much higher amount of XP.

This would allow everyone to use anything... but would it really be worth it for a level 2 fighter to fight gnolls when he only gets 5xp per kill due to his UBER sword and Shield combo.

Obligatory 2 Cents comment lol

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