Relic cheese - it stinks!

[lordvan52681]

you ould think so, but they are not. You should note the post I made about traitors. I have even seen it go so far as becoming hostile from defending myself from a known traitor (you R).

[$chase$]

lol..like i've never fought a faction traitor before...they key is to open up that little player menu and click them to dislike, that solves every problem you have. no matter what they do or where they go....you still dislike them.

the problem with this is that the server doesnt always recognize them as traitors, and if you open up before they do, youre now oucast.

This is what pisses me off about traitors. I could care less if you wanna be one, but I shouldnt be penalized for KoSing a traitor.

if he dont show up red to you and you kill him..arent you doing the same thing you hate him for?

[lordvan52681]

lol..like i've never fought a faction traitor before...they key is to open up that little player menu and click them to dislike, that solves every problem you have. no matter what they do or where they go....you still dislike them.

the problem with this is that the server doesnt always recognize them as traitors, and if you open up before they do, youre now oucast.

This is what pisses me off about traitors. I could care less if you wanna be one, but I shouldnt be penalized for KoSing a traitor.

if he dont show up red to you and you kill him..arent you doing the same thing you hate him for?

No, for two reasons.

1. They do it unprovoked, whereas we are killing a known traitor who is friendly due to a glitch in the faction system (or at least I consider being able to kill your faction members and stay neutral a glitch).

2. Both of the people I named prey on lowbies, while they are high level characters. When I attack them, they rank impossible to me, not effortless.

[$chase$]

so its ok to kill players who arent hostile to you ..

[kingfatzo]

I would say so... EXCEPT only if they REPEADATLY and INTENTIONALLY interfere with "their" factions NPC's quests, or relics. Would i kill someone known to be a traitor if i crossed their path -- No not initially, but usually they are seen attacking another player in my faction, or they attack me directly....

PS: was a post of mine deleted from this specific discussion? i am sure i know which one it was, and if the content was found innapropriate i appologize to those offended..... still i think it was a good point, maybe just worded poorly -- it should not have been directed to a single person but instead to an unspecific faction as an overall example, not as an insult to any one group. Now your all wondering what i mean -- and basically it is that the LA were the ones dealing with these "traitors" , as far as i can tell, other factions do not have to put up with this behavior, therefore you might not fully understand peoples frustrations not because you are ignorant, but simply because it may not have ever happened to you --- and i sincerely hope it doesnt...


--- and now for a quick edit -- it seems Celorn and i were thinking similar ideas at the same time

[Celorn]

so its ok to kill players who arent hostile to you ..

Umm.. who's the DM here? Why are you asking questions like this of players? To find justification for your own actions?

If a particular toon has killed it's own faction members, but has not become a traitor in the eyes of the scripts, and continues to build a reputation to kill it's own, then that person should expect to be PK'd by friendlies.

And everyone is starting to recognize 'nspker' as a login with griefer tendencies, so if you log on any toon under that name Chase, people will dislike and/or attack you -- if this was a pure roleplay server, then you could have multiple toons, and nobody could just attack you without cause, but in a meta-gaming server like NS4, it's all out war....

Same goes for willow.. if } roamy {, ~ BlAck..whatever ~, Ting Tang, Darkwanker, or whatever toons decide to roam Aetheria, I will hunt and kill them as well, red or green, and even before a shout goes out or someone 'tells' me they were pk'd...

BACK TO RELICS:
I think it's time to come up with a solid set of rules/commandments specifically geared towards relic battles! People are not just using friendly toons, but toons from other factions all together, and many are switching toons several times when attacking (defending this is ok, but attacking?! i though that broke a regular PK commandment??) but the dms dont seem to mind?

[Death Dealer1]

couple more things here...you can kill anyone in your town you want to thats not an npc....you might be hostile, but it won't last long so its not permanent. i've tested the outlaw abilities of factions personally and unless its changed..as long as no town NPC's are killed its temporary, if no one see's you kill the guards...you can kill 2-3 before they consider you from hostile to outcast.


logging for defense is a round a bout role...if your constantly reloging toons for defense to gain the upper hand on the builds attacking...why can't they relog to counter balance. this all pertains to relics and not general pk.

and don't give me that "DD does it all the time" crap celorn....there have been many variables of jain/sin logged and relogged in both attack and defense depending on who is attacking or defending.

[PeregrineV]

My understanding of the faction system is that each faction is friendly to itself and to its allies.
But, this applies to the NPC-PC relationship, not to the PC-PC relationship.

So, if two LA toons click each other to dislike, both will be red to each other. If they pound each other senseless (or even dead ) in the middle of the merchant district, the NPCs don't care (they are NPCs). Attacking an faction NPC will outcast you, but not attacking a same faction PC who has been set to dislike.

I'm not sure how attacking a faction PC who is still set to "like" would affect it, but I can't imagine it should. When Lloth's avatar attacked NS city, it was showing "blue" and was not attacked by the NPCs.

[Death Dealer1]

npc's don't attack dm chars no matter what because a dm is like to everything.

[$chase$]

so its ok to kill players who arent hostile to you ..

Umm.. who's the DM here? Why are you asking questions like this of players? To find justification for your own actions?

If a particular toon has killed it's own faction members, but has not become a traitor in the eyes of the scripts, and continues to build a reputation to kill it's own, then that person should expect to be PK'd by friendlies.

And everyone is starting to recognize 'nspker' as a login with griefer tendencies, so if you log on any toon under that name Chase, people will dislike and/or attack you -- if this was a pure roleplay server, then you could have multiple toons, and nobody could just attack you without cause, but in a meta-gaming server like NS4, it's all out war....

Same goes for willow.. if } roamy {, ~ BlAck..whatever ~, Ting Tang, Darkwanker, or whatever toons decide to roam Aetheria, I will hunt and kill them as well, red or green, and even before a shout goes out or someone 'tells' me they were pk'd...

BACK TO RELICS:
I think it's time to come up with a solid set of rules/commandments specifically geared towards relic battles! People are not just using friendly toons, but toons from other factions all together, and many are switching toons several times when attacking (defending this is ok, but attacking?! i though that broke a regular PK commandment??) but the dms dont seem to mind?

i was asking to see what the general players had to say on this issue..NOT to get a atitude from you.

[Metis]

First off, I deleted over a page of spam so I may have accidently deleted a legitamit post.

Keeping in mind we are only discussing things involved with the relics. The relogging issue, for defenders it is always ok if you want to relog 10 different characters to try. An attacking group going for a relic should be able to relog for more appropriate attack force. That being said I think it is wrong and not in the spirit of the relic system for an attacker to log a friendly character to defenders to harrass the defenders and assist the attacking group to get a relic. As with everything there are exceptions, a known outcast who is attacked by the guards on sight but, I would expect that person to be decent enough to immediately set all his allies to dislike, come on people that takes about 10 seconds.

And no pointing fingers I have seen it from many factions/guilds/individuals. If I see someone using this tactic expect my interference it annoys me to no end that now the staff has to once again spend time coming up with a solution due to the actions of a few who are affecting a great new thing.

Last two things, I want to stress before anyone makes a comment, plenty of guilty people from all places. I don't want to see "its not in the rules" its common sense and everyone here is smart enough to realize it.

[Celorn]

i was asking to see what the general players had to say on this issue..NOT to get a atitude from you.

Hey! I'm sorry if what I said came off as an attack, none was intended, just a little rivalry in the spirit of PvP, sheesh, come on chase *punches arm* having some lvl 30-40 noob killing toons to hunt and kill is a lot of fun, a lot more fun than relics for me...

Perhaps a carefully worded user poll might reap some better results?

First off, I deleted over a page of spam so I may have accidently deleted a legitamit post.

Keeping in mind we are only discussing things involved with the relics. The relogging issue, for defenders it is always ok if you want to relog 10 different characters to try. An attacking group going for a relic should be able to relog for more appropriate attack force.

OK, so some rules are starting to form themselves..

1. you can relog different toons endlessly to attack or defend relics...

That being said I think it is wrong and not in the spirit of the relic system for an attacker to log a friendly character to defenders to harrass the defenders and assist the attacking group to get a relic.

1a. you may not relog a toon that is of the faction you are attacking or defending against to disrupt (OR SPY/scout???)

1b. what about using a toon from 'Faction A' to steal a relic from 'Faction B' but then bring it back to 'Faction C' - this seems to be another 'not in the spirit' type deal and it happens quite a bit (one reason is a NC toon can waltz into TC with no NPCs bothering him!!).

As with everything there are exceptions, a known outcast who is at[tacked by the guards on sight but, I would expect that person to be decent enough to immediately set all his allies to dislike, come on people that takes about 10 seconds.

What? and tip people off that you're going to ambush them?? Most people don't have the grapes to do that...

And no pointing fingers I have seen it from many factions/guilds/individuals. If I see someone using this tactic expect my interference it annoys me to no end that now the staff has to once again spend time coming up with a solution due to the actions of a few who are affecting a great new thing.

Last two things, I want to stress before anyone makes a comment, plenty of guilty people from all places. I don't want to see "its not in the rules" its common sense and everyone here is smart enough to realize it.

Well to DD1 as well, I know I've done it, kst, dd, everyone pretty much... the problem is, the relic system and the normal PvP system have some opposite/conflicting rules, and could tear the server apart with confustion and chaos. I'm glad that the DMs are watching and frown on such behavior, hopefully it won't have to come to get into super complicated scripting to slow the server down more.

[Ragefist]

There just isn't any pleasing most of you people. Not to be rude, but the relic system was added to give focus to the supposed faction conflict that exists as a background to the world here. Less useless PKing of faction leaders/boss people, more time spent engaged in high level vs high level pvp, with a nice reward. And now somehow it's "broken" b/c a few factions run the show?

The simple fact of the matter is that most of you players out there (exceptions exist, only wear this shoe if it fits you -- I don't want 10 billion angry replies from mostly decent people) can't play nice. The Brethren defend against a mostly for fun raid of 2 or 3 people en masse, rushing like lemmings sometimes from spawn point in the city to sword point at the castle, effectively drowning the invaders in black and gold blood, and then crow to the server about how hard they wtfpwnt the invaders. And before anyone jumps the shark here and starts lambasting me, I'm not talking about most of the raids I've been in on, just things I've seen and heard from others.

Alternatively, and as I saw from a unique vantage point over the last few days (over a friend's shoulder as he played) KsT with some help from the ever cuddly Willow get back in the game with the grindmaster Sirus (well done, BTW, that's some patience ) and some others, and the god forsaken griping and whining about raiding and counter raiding starts again. For the last time, people, taking the relic and returning it to your home faction's cradle is already announced as a server message -- your poorly spelled and largely vacuous boasting does nothing but piss off the rest of the people trying to play on the server (that last goes to all involved, trash talking is trash talking, whoever does it).

As far as faction outcasts etc etc, I've got this to say -- Who freakin cares? It has ALWAYS been the case that once in a while people from your faction will go rogue and decide to turn against you. Happens in reality, happens in the game, can't be helped. Now, if someone attacks as one faction, logs a new toon of another faction (possibly more than once, not pointing any fingers here, but I've seen this one done recently), then it becomes abusive, as that character is knowingly gaming the like/dislike status to buy him/herself a few extra seconds of time before enemy recognition kicks in and the defenders wipe the floor with their toon.

All in all, the discussion concerning the "spirit of the rules" is sorta moot. It's hard to enforce with an iron boot the unwritten rules, and if the player base is jumpy and spastic like a cracked out monkey on a three day bender, then there's little even the gods of the realm can do to fix the situation. Hell, if we wanted to be really harsh, keeping a mule character is technically more metagaming than we ought to allow. We should all have one character, and that character ought to lose xp when raise dead is cast, and levels, and it should be really freakin' expensive to cast lots of high level spells. In short, leeway has to be given, and that means there will always be slack in some of the rules of the server. This slack, however, is a good thing -- it means you're free to play as you choose, instead of as a DM or a Dev dictates.

So stop abusing the leeway, it's just a game, yada yada, insert generic words of sage advice here. Id est shaddup and play, the rest will sort itself out.

[Silver Lady]

toons with 1 lvl of SD suck = only to get a cheese and run back

[Metis]

This topic was locked for a short time, I asked it to be unlocked in the hopes of getting suggestions.

Celorn, you are some the things I stated reloging mainly go against our pvp rules which why I stressed only in relation to relics. And yes, there is a ton of grey area so I ask for common sense, best I can offer.

Ragefist, I take my time reading and writing these posts because the people posting on this thread are only a fraction of the number of players on the server so the “just go play” attitude doesn’t work for me. There is a lot of time and energy put into this and I would like to see more people involved and also as other become strong enough I would like to see them play in a way that is fun for everyone, lets me stress that everyone. I personally enjoy seeing groups organize and plan its fun for them and me but, I also would like to see others that WANT to be involved get a better understanding.

Since no suggestions topic re-locked.