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Nemesis Revised · Post by **Nemesis Revised** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:47 pm

Ever try to go heads up against iron claw at even level???

yeh. my bg's doomknight helped me kill the dragonshape

MasterYoda · Post by **MasterYoda** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:05 pm

even so cant melencia have BG too ?

dennissc · Post by **dennissc** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:35 pm

Ragnar's Kin (or DW) is on alot, just not in numbers at the same time. We all have diverse schedules so we can't all be on at the same time. Plus we still just have fun without having to worry about the relics that much. Although, the last time there were a number of us on we did raid Menzo and were soundly defeated after getting our relic back. It was all in good fun. But if I'm on alone the last thing I'm worried about is getting our relic back.

MLoki · Post by **MLoki** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:53 pm

AggieDan wrote:I say to keep it the way it is...

[snip]

Last I checked, though, The Circle and Northern Coalition were allies... Shifters as solo characters can pretty much get their clocks cleaned going toe to toe with a group of defenders... But, in a party?

[snip]

If you want to be more successful at raiding relics... Stop thinking about going solo.

Why would they help NC unless the The Circle would get something out of it to? TC doesn't have enought support characters to form a decent raiding party and if they are just helping NC to get relics then that still doesn't put any points on the board for them. I really do like the idea of allies sharing relic craddles to split the relics apart some. This would make it so raiding parties might not be able to take every relic away from one location and would instead have to explore two areas to recover all the relics from an allied force. As previously stated this would also split defenders between two locations or allow allies to help guard or raid an area.

MLoki

lordvan52681 · Post by **lordvan52681** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:01 pm

MasterYoda wrote:even so cant melencia have BG too ?

Nope. TC doesnt allow evil alignments.

Elagneros · Post by **Elagneros** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:38 pm

P. Fricebottle wrote: Wrong, so wrong. SL has a good defensive setup, true. Their drow guards are awesome, they have clerics and dual scimmy guards (crits ouchy).

That's true. Also, Menzo's got a great defensive setup, and there's plenty of choke points a raider has to get through to get to the relic and back out to a point where he can easily evade opponents. And to do that, a player have to know those underground passages well, and many players don't explore the underground very thoroughly.

(TLB doesn't defend, except Rudash I swear).

What?! The Brethren is VERY active in the relic system, both offensively and defensively. We have managed to take and hold relics from SL even when there were denfenders on.

lordvan52681 · Post by **lordvan52681** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 4:52 pm

Elagneros wrote:
P. Fricebottle wrote:
(TLB doesn't defend, except Rudash I swear).

What?! The Brethren is VERY active in the relic system, both offensively and defensively. We have managed to take and hold relics from SL even when there were denfenders on.

This is very true, during my tenure in FoN, Elagneros, Celorn, and many others from tLB were still active and are the reason we have so many points on the board.

Im not an offensive minded person, I dont like going on raids too much. I stick to what I do well and that is defend. If it were only me, we wouldnt have many points on the board at all.

Oltho · Post by **Oltho** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 5:20 pm

Sightbringer wrote:
MLoki wrote:So again the question comes up, why don't relics offer "any" bonus to allied factions? It may make some factions help others to retrieve relics for at least a little piece of the Pie. Before you say but LA doesn't have any allies... remember that LA is the most often played faction and the easiest starting location and being centrally located they also have the easiest time getting to and from enemy cities. Even if that does mean they are the most raided faction perhaps they could stand up for themselves a little more instead of whining about it. Just a thought.

MLoki

I agree with you on this Loki.

Also, tTo be fair to the NS people, they did a good job defending the relics when they got them the other day.

I know Trent & I got smacked down when we tried to grab the LA relic last night something fierce. Granted my main was still just a lvl 20 noobcake but I was shocked how tough the guys defending it were.

Ragefist · Post by **Ragefist** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:29 pm

P. Fricebottle wrote:
Ragefist wrote:Pretty decent defensive setups, allthough none of the relic cradles I've seen has been all that hard to defend
Wrong, so wrong. SL has a good defensive setup, true. Their drow guards are awesome, they have clerics and dual scimmy guards (crits ouchy). Also their relic cradle is located in the Temple of Lloth. Its rather time-consuming to clear that place of NPCs if you don't want to risk being killed. As for LA guards, if you haven't read recent posts, they suck. DMs have said in the past it is the job the large population of LA to defend their city, so they made the guards weaker. The relic cradle is located in the castle, good place, but all that is in the castle are the weak guards and 2 decent commanders. The guards wear level 13 armor, ghaeles kill their own teammates (god I hate those guys), and they are renkowned for being some of the weakest guards in the game. No questions asked. Don't get me wrong, its a good defensive position but theres no one to defend it for time enough for people to get back. (TLB doesn't defend, except Rudash I swear).

Yeah, I was talking location, b/c honestly, I don't expect any of the guards to put up much of a fight in any city to an actual group of raiders. The LA guards don't suck as much as you people think. Ghael true seeing is still more annoying than most other stuff in the game (possible exception of invis purge in SL, but i don't seem to get hit with it as much as Ghaels just spot me and make me leave the screen). LA's cradle is in a pretty nasty room, for its level. Hell, when I was trying to get my rleic back solo last week, it was mainly the slow grind down by the guards in that room, coupled with a few PC hits that took me out (sigh for having to cover all the dmg bases with shield + armor). But overall, none of the defenders are going to be a challenge for a decently sized or decently strong raiding party. Having doors to close between your relic and the enemy, however, is a lovely way to give yourself that half second edge in spell casting or positioning that can make all the difference in the world.

@ Spura -- Make a rakshasa of decently high level. Walk into SL. Laugh as spells from all the bloody sorc/wizzies there ping off of you like so many raindrops from a windshield. Run away quickly. Rinse, wash, repeat. Now, do it with a party, some melee to back you up, maybe a caster or two of your own -- step 3, profit. TC has fewer uber builds, I'll agree, but it is far from helpless.

Death Dealer1 · Post by **Death Dealer1** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:35 pm

yeah....i beat down a rak shape in SL. i make them choose between the immunity to spells or the immunity to a beat down. hard choice but it has to be made.

P. Fricebottle · Post by **P. Fricebottle** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:51 pm

Sorry, forgot to include Celorn. Seen him defend a lot, I've seen Slash defend once as well. Other than that, I've never seen you defend Elagneros, I just never have. Call it coincidences, but I really don't see much of The Legendery Bretheren defend. Just telling it the way I see it.

For Ragefist...You're speaking of the location of AO's relic cradle way too often, sure its out in public (that sucks I admit). But before getting to it you must get past true-seeing guards and DRAGONS! Chirrem the dragon sits right by the cradle, and another huge dragon blocks the gates of Sleeth. Those things are a pain to kill. Ghaeles got true-seeing, big deal. So do AO's! Besides, what are they going to do to you if they spot you? Unless you're a lowbie in LA, they probably won't get you with their gaze. ALSO, the room where the cradle is hidden isn't that great as you portray it. Sure theres some guards, Sir Kobort and his lacker but thats it. Lloth has her minion, priestesses, and guards all surrounding her relic. Those NPCs are freakin hard! MA has immune shield guardians and mages, better than LA's just that they have no PCs to defend. NC isn't that great I'll admit, TC is decent (Spirit Guardians), stonehold and druid casters, and rangers. I've never raided RK. Oh yes, MA has doors as well. So does TC and the SL.

Elagneros · Post by **Elagneros** » Mon Mar 06, 2006 11:33 pm

P. Fricebottle wrote:Sorry, forgot to include Celorn. Seen him defend a lot, I've seen Slash defend once as well. Other than that, I've never seen you defend Elagneros, I just never have. Call it coincidences, but I really don't see much of The Legendery Bretheren defend. Just telling it the way I see it.

I tend to go after relics with my monk because he's fast and can slip in and out quickly. Otherwise, I'll usually back up a group of defenders when needed.

Spura · Post by **Spura** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 3:56 pm

Ragefist wrote:@ Spura -- Make a rakshasa of decently high level. Walk into SL. Laugh as spells from all the bloody sorc/wizzies there ping off of you like so many raindrops from a windshield. Run away quickly. Rinse, wash, repeat. Now, do it with a party, some melee to back you up, maybe a caster or two of your own -- step 3, profit. TC has fewer uber builds, I'll agree, but it is far from helpless.

No that doesn't work.
We tried raiding sleeth like this. Me as raksasha and 4 melee guys of FoN. You know what happened? Sure kromix couldn't kill me, but with crap AB I couldn't hit him, with crap dispell I couldn't dispell him, nothing I was about to do so he just killed everyone else but raksasha then beat me to death with staff. Thanks for 40 AC 35 AB devs, mage gets 56 AC easily.

You see, you are like all others here, you've never played a high level shifter on this server in a raid and you still feel you have the right to theorycraft. Raksasha CAN'T tank mage spells for the whole group.
We have this scenario: Mage + Melee vs Rak + Melee. Mage disables Melee of group 2 and kills them while melee of group 1 kills rak. Rak is immune to mage(actually wail will kill him and greater ruin works) but melee kills him, while he is totally unable to help his melee buddies vs mage as he can't even dispell anything on lvl 20+ caster nor he can hurt mage because AB is too low to hit any player with real AC, and spell he possesses suck because they take druid levels for caster levels. I guess you could make druid 30/shifter 10 just to use with rak shape with ice storm and nothing else but such gimmick build would suck as soon as someone uses robe 25% cold with shield 25% cold and elemental shield spell gives 50% cold immunity for total immunity to cold. Not that rak would actually resist KD.

AggieDan wrote:Last I checked, though, The Circle and Northern Coalition were allies... Shifters as solo characters can pretty much get their clocks cleaned going toe to toe with a group of defenders... But, in a party?

I shudder to think what a dragon with a decent support group would be like. And why is everyone in TC focusing on SHIFTER? Pure druids can be pretty good spell casters.

As already explained, being in party doesn't change anything. Crap AB and crap damage make shifter a non-threat so he is just ignored while mages or clerics mop the floor with whoever else is in the party then some melee beats the crap out of shifter, permanently KDing him thanks to cross-class disc.

As for you question why is everyone focusing on shifter. Well the reason is: TC sucks. Shifter is the only thing TC has that other factions don't have. I can make anything else TC can make bigger and better on other factions. Why the hell would I want to make spellcasting druid on TC? I can make this same build on LA and I can tuck a level of monk into it and get tons of AC, evasion and discipline and hide and move silently. I also get +50% move speed token, I get more player population I can work with and I get more frequent relic bonus. Also Melencia is on crap location where you need to walk an eternity to get anywhere, LA has avendel nearby, also black hills ferry, and they have direct ferry to FD. TC has crap, crap location, crappily small population, crap builds you can easily improve by choosing LA and taking monk or something like that. That;s the whole reason why people choose TC for shifter, because if shifter wasn't limited to TC, I wouldn't pick TC.

MasterYoda wrote:Last i checked dragonshape was still a great build.......

And being that your a group full o shifters .... I really really really think if you had like 3-5 dragon shapes you could wipe the floors with the entire server.....

Well, you are wrong on all counts. You are theorycrafing as you haven't played a dragon shifter against a cleric fighter or bard rdd, neither have you taken time to even calculate what would be the stats of such a build. A dragon shifter has 55 AC 44 AB on this server and disc so low you can KD him. His damage is limited to slashing so you can gear 50% 15/- vs him.

Dragon shape is not a great build. Frankly it sucks. If you don't believe me, we can have DM give me a lvl 40 character and you make 4 dragonshape shifters and I will take them all on at once and still win easily.

MasterYoda · Post by **MasterYoda** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 4:03 pm

^^^^^ lol dragon shape owns and i would gladly fight you 1v1 with a level 40 dragon shap vs you as anything .....

Dragon shape + buffs+ KD+ greater ruin + hellball = you loose......

Ive fought a pure level 30+ druid dragon shape WITH kromix as my back up and we LOST.....

man your a funny person ......

\Mabey next time you post you should do so on a day where noone spilt your chocolate milk so your not that grumpy..... :lol:

**Edit** and we were both level 30 mages and i had Dragon knight and hell ball and we both had greater ruin and we STILL lost...

Post by **Metis** » Wed Mar 08, 2006 4:49 pm

Before this goes any further about shifter issues. The shifters were modified before to increase their ability to survive. Not every change can be perfect, in this case we are not done with shifter changes, after more testing expect more modifications to come.

And now back to your regularly scheduled topic courtesy of Zing - Scoreboard