Bows ?

Phage · Post by **Phage** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 11:49 pm

Ok, I know that there has been a pretty big debate about 2-handed weapons. The choice to use resistances and immunities has drastically changed the balance with weapons rendering the shield extremely powerful.

This argument also extends to the user of a bow; what they give up in potential armor they gain with range. However, the design of NS seems specifically geared against users of the bow. Allow me to make a small list here.

1) Using a bow means that you give up not only the AC, but also the resistances of a shield. (2-handed weapon problem)

2) Using a bow means that you have to purchase costly ammunition, and there isn't any available that has the numerous damage bonuses you can find on special weapons.

3) Using a bow means that all of those weapon enchantments others cast on their weapons you cannot use. That is right, bows are "not weapons".

That about sums it up. The problems with ranged physical combat include poorly planned balance issues (1), unfair economic hardship (2), and plain old lazy/sloppy coding (3). Is there anything being planned to help this issue, or is the entire game going to turn into morningstar/shield fighters vs. casters?

Death Dealer1 · Post by **Death Dealer1** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 11:51 pm

you will find that its warhammer/shield fighters vs. casters....and i think they are looking into different things to do with all 2 handed weapons including bows.

$chase$ · Post by **$chase$** » Fri Dec 23, 2005 11:56 pm

glad to see your first post is such a positive one

Phage · Post by **Phage** » Sat Dec 24, 2005 12:00 am

Death Dealer1 wrote:you will find that its warhammer/shield fighters vs. casters....and i think they are looking into different things to do with all 2 handed weapons including bows.

It is probably warhammer because of the nice dwarf hammer, but my idea behind using a morningstar is that while the crit modifier is lower than the warhammer, the morningstar does both bludgeoning and piercing damage. Thus, using a morningstar means you have covered 2 of the 3 resistances already.

That reminds me; 4: if you are using a bow you have no chance of dealing anything other than piercing damage. With everything having resistances being locked into one damage type is a much greater issue.

Phage · Post by **Phage** » Sat Dec 24, 2005 12:03 am

$chase$ wrote:glad to see your first post is such a positive one

I call it like I see it. Nobody can argue that NS does not have a lot of problems, I am just pointing out something that needs work.

Death Dealer1 · Post by **Death Dealer1** » Sat Dec 24, 2005 12:15 am

locking into one damage type is bad, but of the 3 piercing would be the best one to get locked too. you will find that most things are slash immune, some are bludgeon, and a small percentage is pierce.....so pierce would be the one to use the most. on the other side 1 handed piercing weapons aren't that often or good, best being merfolk if i remember. don't worry, some things will change eventually.

Post by **TheBestDeception** » Sat Dec 24, 2005 12:17 am

$chase$ wrote:glad to see your first post is such a positive one

It was actually a critique about the drawbacks of ranged weapons, which if anything, was slightly negative in its tone.

Phage wrote:I call it like I see it. Nobody can argue that NS does not have a lot of problems, I am just pointing out something that needs work.

http://www.nsrealm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?t=3131

Elagneros · Post by **Elagneros** » Sat Dec 24, 2005 12:25 am

NWN itself really doesn't handle ranged weapons very well. Few of the ranged weapon feats based on Point Blank Shot were implemented, and real time aspect of the game usually means you can get in maybe 3-4 shots before your enemy closes.

Bows are occasionally useful, like when HiPSing, but I rarely rely on my ranged weapons, instead using them to soften an enemy before they close to melee range.

As pointed out, the ammunition situation was discussed recently. I think it would be better to make those junky treasure items that are mostly worthless now a rarer drop, and add an increased chance of ammo. Dye kits as well when the devs add them, and maybe weapon poisons as well.

Death Dealer1 · Post by **Death Dealer1** » Sat Dec 24, 2005 12:25 am

hehe, i would so make an AA, but after 2 years i'm still collecting the arrow supply.

Elagneros · Post by **Elagneros** » Sat Dec 24, 2005 12:28 am

Death Dealer1 wrote:locking into one damage type is bad, but of the 3 piercing would be the best one to get locked too.

And of course everything in Garagoth has high piercing resist too...

Death Dealer1 · Post by **Death Dealer1** » Sat Dec 24, 2005 12:30 am

yeah, and they don't like other mages very well.

Post by **TGPO** » Sat Dec 24, 2005 2:05 am

1) Using a bow means that you give up not only the AC, but also the resistances of a shield. (2-handed weapon problem)

If your making an archer you will probably be making a DEX based build. In which case your AC in the end will be on par with all those heavy slogging types. Another point is, if you insist on using a bow for close in combat and not having a backup melee weapon and shield you are pretty much getting what you ask for. Just because you WANT to use your bow where a dagger would be more fitting doesnt automaticly make it the best weapon for the situation.

As for 2 handed weapons and loosing the shield bonuses. Thats the trade off you as a player made in making the decision to go that route. Face it a narrow piece of wood or metal simply isnt as good at blocking as a great big wide piece of wood or metal.

2) Using a bow means that you have to purchase costly ammunition, and there isn't any available that has the numerous damage bonuses you can find on special weapons.

This seems to relate to a bit of reality here. It costs me more to go out to the rifle range than it does to practice throwing a knife in my garage. Ammunition costs, its a fact of life.

There are several arrow types that drop that have plenty of nice damage bonuses to them. Some of which carry more bonuses than the melee weapons designed for equivalent levels.

3) Using a bow means that all of those weapon enchantments others cast on their weapons you cannot use. That is right, bows are "not weapons".

Blame Bioware

That about sums it up. The problems with ranged physical combat include poorly planned balance issues (1), unfair economic hardship (2), and plain old lazy/sloppy coding (3). Is there anything being planned to help this issue, or is the entire game going to turn into morningstar/shield fighters vs. casters?

1. answered
2. please try and be constructive, this kind of comment garners only ill will from those who would otherwise be in a position to help and make changes when presented with a lucid argument. It is also in this case vastly incorrect.
3. it is far from that already. I would suggest looking much harder at the classes and how they interact with one another.

Post by **Yonwe** » Sat Dec 24, 2005 2:39 am

TGPO ain't kidding... have you priced a box of quality 30-06? The cost of ammo is a bane of my existance as well

Although as for the loss of benefits for not using a shield, high-dex builds with tumble usually have higher ACs than heavily-armored shield toters anyways; with only equipment, a fighter type can get around 40-45 AC, while a DEX-er can get upwards of 50... resistence and reduction is redudant when you can avoid hits altogether.

Post by **TheBestDeception** » Sat Dec 24, 2005 11:39 am

There is one point often overlooked in discussions about bows and what not, and that is the idea that maybe when one person speaks of using a bow, they actually want to use the bow (and not a shield - this is actually the purpose of such 'Point Blank Shot'). The plain truth is that should this person use the bow, they will be at least a 6 AC disadvantage to the shield, much like the dual wielder, or two-handed weapon user. Will it be 'On Par' with the heavy types? Yes, to the poorly constructed ones. Furthermore, you lose 1/2 of the resistances you would have had by wielding a shield, which is another reason archers appear more fragile.

Another thing I'd like to respectfully disagree with my colleagues are the bringing in of 'reality' into a discussion where magic prevails. One cannot forget that in a place where hammers can be keen and meteor storms are harmless, things can often happen that do not occur in the physical world.

Now, since the helpful link will likely not be followed, I'll go ahead and outline why bow users will feel weaker than melee - and rightly so.

1) Ammunition. Whereas melee users will get a hold of that uncommon drop from their faction boss and keep it from then on, the bow users will be lucky to ever see Imbued Forest Arrows or Ice Arrows, since they dropped rather uncommonly. (Not to mention, when arrows are fired at 5 / round, they are gone in 20 rounds). I would not say costly is currently an issue, unless you are referring to crafting, in which case losing XP is always going to be costly (to make inferior arrows, at that).

Solution: Either make ammunition easier to obtain from crafting for arrows / bullets, or make drops of such ammunition occur more frequently. Elemental damage is the main loss of having to use store-bought arrows. Not to mention the lvl 16 arrows look much cooler when flying through the air.

2) Ammunition. These cannot be keen, limiting the critical range a bow is capable of having, to 19-20.

Solution: I believe this to be a Bio engine limitation, not being able to stick keen onto arrows. Therefore, additional defense or some other compensation would help for the inherent disadvantage bow users will face at the high levels.

3) Above described loss of AC and resistances. This could easily be grouped with the dual-wielders and two-handed weapon users, in trying to make those types worthwhile, as well (they are currently not).

Solution: Balance of some sort.

4) Arcane Archer, the only viable choice for an archer (due to this being the ONLY way they can get an enhancement bonus) will therefore nix them from choosing other prestige classes. How would the melee types feel if they had to take 9 levels of WM in order to get a +5 enhancement? Fortunately for them, they need only be mage, cleric, or bard to cast a spell on their weapon for such... whereas the archer cannot use that method, again forcing the archer to throw in at least 9 AA levels.

Solution: I'm pretty sure the spells-on-a-bow issue is an engine limitation. Therefore, this one gets a big "?" on my end.

ihuntudown · Post by **ihuntudown** » Sat Dec 24, 2005 2:15 pm

TheBestDeception wrote:

1) Ammunition. Whereas melee users will get a hold of that uncommon drop from their faction boss and keep it from then on, the bow users will be lucky to ever see Imbued Forest Arrows or Ice Arrows, since they dropped rather uncommonly. (Not to mention, when arrows are fired at 5 / round, they are gone in 20 rounds). I would not say costly is currently an issue, unless you are referring to crafting, in which case losing XP is always going to be costly

.

In what time are you living man? I'm working a new archer out on paper, and knowing how the things react on each other i'm pretty sure i can get to 7shots/round
about that crafting, its just a must here to drop the prizes, thou it would be fun if the Ma fletcher can craft some more/day