In my version of NWN rock-paper-sisscors:
Mages beat Dragon Shapes
Dragon Shapes beat Melees
Melees beat Clerics
Clerics beat Sneaks
Sneaks beat Mages...
UBER BUILD!!!!!
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-Chronepsis-
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Holghask, You8 got it all wrong, just keep trying new things and u'll see, also ask questions bout diff things and u will learn ways to beat other chars no matter what class u are. I got a cleric build goin that has a good chance of beating mages and maybe even dragons, so keep asking questions and making new builds, u might surprise urself 
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Flailer
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So, I don't don't necessarily care about PvP versus the dragon build - it's a tough build, but not unbeatable, and you have to know what you're doing and have the right build to take it down.TheBestDeception wrote:I think it should be remembered that even without IGMS or Bigby's, a "maximized" (read: cheap) mage can beat a "maximized" dragon.
Epic Warding is far too much of a buffer for the dragon to claw through in the time he has to live ... not to mention that with all the Discipline buffs, the sorcerer stays on his feet against anything less than a critical hit. Meanwhile, Horrid Wilting is spammed uber times for an un-reflex-save-able 100-ish damage each.
Dragon dies after taking 1000 dmg.
But the real problem I see is in PvM. Unless you make every mob over 30 a caster that is designed to beat that build, it becomes trivial to beat just about any monster in the game. And, if we design mobs to overcome an AC of 84 and super high damage soak, that doesn't really make sense for the rest of the builds.
So, something in this build has gotta change, and it will change if it is in fact changable. I'm open to suggestions, but just thought I'd throw this out there so everybody thinking 'I know, I'll make one of those dragon builds and win teh game!' can stop right there.
Flailer
NS Developer
None of us is as dumb as all of us.
NS Developer
None of us is as dumb as all of us.
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deathdearler1
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TheBestDeception
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I think I quote more than I talk ... reading other posts is helpful before making silly statements, deathdealer.
TheBestDeception wrote:However, maximized dragonshapes (up to lvl 40, not in a rush to gain 30 WIS) typically have between 6-9 monk levels, anyways, so don't expect this to be a big detriment to that. This would effectively prevent the ShadowDragon, though.
But, it's such a draining job that, until you've DMed on an NWN server yourself, you the playerbase, have got to cut the DMs some slack. - Flailer
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deathdearler1
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oh sure...for the best dragons. what about all those other little cheesy builds? those that rely on the 1 lvl of another class and thats it. wouldn't it eliminate those? maybe you should think of everything instead of just the silly things deception. 
when death comes for you and you are not afraid, if he asks why tell him you met me
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TheBestDeception
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Surely, we wouldnt want to eliminate only part of the problem, would we?
Although he didnt go in to it much, Flailer hit it right on - that dragons are most nearly invulnerable to melee, so any mobs tailored to hit them constantly would be utterly devestating to any other character that walked in there.
I beleive it was an Idea and Suggestion post (Talk of Balance and Dragons) a while back that suggested removing much of the Dragon's sick DEX bonus, effectively lowering their AC and ability to HipS. Perhaps that would be worth looking in to. (Are they supposed to be uber nimble creatures? Or big lumbering beasts?)
... Although I have to say that PvM can only go so long before losing its appeal, and thats where PvP comes in and tailored quests come in.
Although he didnt go in to it much, Flailer hit it right on - that dragons are most nearly invulnerable to melee, so any mobs tailored to hit them constantly would be utterly devestating to any other character that walked in there.
I beleive it was an Idea and Suggestion post (Talk of Balance and Dragons) a while back that suggested removing much of the Dragon's sick DEX bonus, effectively lowering their AC and ability to HipS. Perhaps that would be worth looking in to. (Are they supposed to be uber nimble creatures? Or big lumbering beasts?)
... Although I have to say that PvM can only go so long before losing its appeal, and thats where PvP comes in and tailored quests come in.
But, it's such a draining job that, until you've DMed on an NWN server yourself, you the playerbase, have got to cut the DMs some slack. - Flailer
I still like the idea of making a char take atleast 5 lvls of a class before moving on to the next class .... no more 1 lvls of monk or sd or pally ...... i know it would make alot of people mad if that was ever put in but it would stop alot of the cheese that exists out there ..... prolly require a wipe as well 
For the people talking about minimum-number-of-levels for multiclassing, the number of builds that would be crippled is smaller than you think... many of them take their 1-level-class at 40th anyways: 39 Sorc/1 Pal, ~30 Druid/~5-8 Monk/1 SD, etc. If anything, it would reduce the playability of many common builds no one cites as "cheesy"... no more Fighter/1 Bard/RDD, no more Cleric/1 Monk/Fightter, and so on.
I don't think the so-called "über-builds" of Pallysorcs or Dragons are nearly so much of a problem that they need such a drastic fix that would affect other classes; there was a time recently when 40% of the server was running around with Max IGMS, but even in the days of rat-killing, Dragons and Pallysorcs were quite rare.
I don't think the so-called "über-builds" of Pallysorcs or Dragons are nearly so much of a problem that they need such a drastic fix that would affect other classes; there was a time recently when 40% of the server was running around with Max IGMS, but even in the days of rat-killing, Dragons and Pallysorcs were quite rare.
~DM Yonwe
Lolth - Goddess of the Drow
Velsharoon - God of Undeath
Lolth - Goddess of the Drow
Velsharoon - God of Undeath
i have to strongly disagree.. that won't eliminate the cheese enough to be worth such a drastic change - and think about it... when people can lvlup to 40, then they can just tack on a monk or sd or whatever on the last lvlup.
PLUS some times even when you want to take, say, monk and something else, it's WAY more playable to take certain lvls at certain times, and it would be really frustrating, especially to newbs to have so many extra, confusing rules. I'd think keeping it as simple as possible is best, you can crimp all you want but one or two builds will STILL stand above, it's an unbeatable game. Plus if you gimp everything too much, the whole world will be less interesting and less fun, so people will go away.
AS for the dragon build itself... if you make a 5 lvl limit, it won't hurt too bad either once lvl40 is reachable, since you could do your monk lvls at 34-39 then top off druid at 40 or whatever, plus taking monk lvls to 6 or 12 or 20 can be even more effective then 1 anyhow.
Aren't there some alternatives to gimping every power build that arises? This is an action pvp server afterall, so making strong builds is part of the point of playing on here isn't it? The faction class limits, no way to change alignment, and the 1 PRC limit are great, NATURAL ways to balance, but it makes some PRCs useless like Shifter -- if you can't take monk lvls, a shifter is pretty darn weak, and wouldn't the Circle naturally have monks among them? or is it that they not like the way monks can become supernatural?
anyhow, some of this has already been discussed in other threads...
PLUS some times even when you want to take, say, monk and something else, it's WAY more playable to take certain lvls at certain times, and it would be really frustrating, especially to newbs to have so many extra, confusing rules. I'd think keeping it as simple as possible is best, you can crimp all you want but one or two builds will STILL stand above, it's an unbeatable game. Plus if you gimp everything too much, the whole world will be less interesting and less fun, so people will go away.
AS for the dragon build itself... if you make a 5 lvl limit, it won't hurt too bad either once lvl40 is reachable, since you could do your monk lvls at 34-39 then top off druid at 40 or whatever, plus taking monk lvls to 6 or 12 or 20 can be even more effective then 1 anyhow.
Aren't there some alternatives to gimping every power build that arises? This is an action pvp server afterall, so making strong builds is part of the point of playing on here isn't it? The faction class limits, no way to change alignment, and the 1 PRC limit are great, NATURAL ways to balance, but it makes some PRCs useless like Shifter -- if you can't take monk lvls, a shifter is pretty darn weak, and wouldn't the Circle naturally have monks among them? or is it that they not like the way monks can become supernatural?
anyhow, some of this has already been discussed in other threads...
