40 levels too much?

[JustDrow]

One of the things that most attracted me to NS -4 beta was the fact that it was lvl capped at 25. How interesting it was to try to create a build that would work well with that cap in place. Trying to create impressive pvp and pvm characters. How easy it would be for the dev team to keep all zones balanced for both dexers and fighters alike, because of that cap. Frost Dale would have fit in well with that cap in place if group play was/is the main goal of those zones.

40 levels in, my opinion, ruins servers. Devs can never balance a server because of them. If you gear a zone to hold against high level heavily armored fighters, high level dexers will suffer and will now become mostly back up characters in a group as archers or will be forced into group play . If you gear a zone to dexers, fighters just walk through it for easy xp. Adjust a mid range zone will mess it for lower levels. And on it goes.

Unless you have a massive amount of zones geared to lvl 35 + people will get bored fast with going to the same ½ dozen areas. Look at the pvp aspect of things. With the lvl 25 cap it was interesting, challenging and lvl 25 was obtainable. Look how boring it is going to be for a lvl 40 pvp’er to run around and have a whole mess of players under lvl 35 to pk. How challenging is that?

Not only that. If you thought people were complaining before about getting pk’d by a “too high a lvl player” just wait. How quiet will be anyone under lvl 20 if they get pk’d by lvl 30's +.?

Imagine what giant mountain will be like or the gnoll pits to lvl 40 characters, and both areas give fairly good drops of all sorts. A lvl 40 would not care as to wether or not they get xp if all they are going for are the drops. How easy will it be for a lvl 40 meat shield to just stand there while a lvl 13 goes to town and gathers all the xp they want. Adjusted polar bears, arctic wolves, regular giants or gnolls will all be the same to a lvl 40. Unless of course, they all get adjusted. Then it becomes a never ending story of how to adjust this for that, nerf this because of that, then opps now this is to strong.

No matter how hard dev trys NS-4 will never again be “balanced”. It is impossible. 40 levels is just to far a range to ever hope to get a balance. All the strengths and spells and weapons all become more powerful in the hands that wield the closer to lvl 40 they get. A level 40 rogue running dual 1d4 raipers will beat a lvl 25 rogue running dual 2d6 raipers just based on the skills and feats of the character’s themselves.

Anyway, I think you get my drift. I wish you guys had never lifted the cap. I can see where what was once a thinking, creative person’s crafting server is now going to turn into yet another powergamer server, slow leveling one mind you, but never-the-less a powergamer’s server.

If you brought the cap back I know a few players would not complain. Plus it would be a ton much more easier on you guys in dev to keep things balanced. It would come down to a question of what areas you want for group play and what areas for solo. And if all that is being considered is 1 more level of crafting, then level 25 cap would work out great and crafting would rule the day again with a Grand Master Artisan.

[JustDrow]

It has started already. I was on server 1 when a person bragged over shout how there level 17 warrior took down a frost giant, whereas my level 17 pure monk tailor got owned and died at the hands of 1 frost giant that used an axe.

What's good for one, is not good for another.

[JesterOI]

Sounds like someone doesn't like the fact that their build can't hack the new stuff...

Dex fighters end up with higher ac in the end but less dmg, pretty much sums it up. I don't see how it ruins dex fighter to have 40 levels, I actually think it helps them by providing more feats and levels to get that ever so precious dex ac up even higher.
By level 40 a good dex fighter would be a better tank than a str build considering how the gear is setup.

Archers always suck solo after you're past goblins or orcs. Unless you got yourself some haste/messenger token.

All the high level players won't want to waste anytime raiding cities or n00b gnolls, there will be better things for them to kill else where that have better drops.

Who says the devs can't design areas that require level 40's to group together?

You are right about one thing though, it will never be a perfectly belanced game... However I think the devs are doing a kickass job of it so far.

Now, take a deep breathe and relax, things will be ok!!! Try paying attention to the combat logs and maybe you will figure out why your character sucks so you can improve him or build him better the next time.

Monks suck cause they can't use shields. Haven't you ever wondered why you almost never see any high level warriors that don't use shields?
lvl20 warrior = 32ab easy
lvl20 monk = 26ab

It's a matter of shitty BaB and lack of a shields that make monks suck.

(Btw, where can I get me some of those 1d4 rapiers?)

[Flailer]

As far as some builds being better than other builds, yeah - there are differences. I know your pain of building a monk - I've got a couple myself. I've personally found that mixing up a monk just a smidge with some other classes (not too much though) helps to make them more viable. Will a pure monk get schooled by some brawling frost giants? You betcha. However, that same monk will probably fare much better against a group of casting monsters than our pure fighter will given their natural SR and stunning fist abilities.

There's not going to be a single class that's going to be an uber class (although clerics are about as close as they come ) - each class is going to have it's strengths and weaknesses. If things are done right, it should be a grand rock-papers-scissors effect with certain classes being more d0minant over others and no single class having no vulnerabilities.

With regards to dex versus plate at level 40, I think that remains to be seen since there's not a lot of level 40's running around so far. However, some of the strongest builds I've seen in this and NS 3 were dex based. You can get some really crazy AC with dex based builds. Also, I have a dex based build that is so tweaked to one strength, that I was able to solo Lord Col'Grim the ice giant boss (that's a CR of 143) with it at level 21. However, it has a vulnerability so gaping that the right monster or NPC of about the high teen levels could take it out.

And the issue of balancing with level 40's around. I'm hoping that now that some higher level areas are in, at least some of the pressure of PvP is going to be taken off since people have more things to do. The key to this is going to be releasing more areas that are appropriate for the higher levels that will begin appearing That, however, is a herculean task performed by a scant dev staff at the moment. However, the rock-paper-scissors effect still holds true - a single or group of lower level NPCs can still take down a higher level one if the right weaknesses are exploited. I remember in NS3 taking down (and being taken down by) builds that were 15-20 levels difference than me simply because the right strategy and tactics were used. NS 4 is a much more equipment balanced environment though, so we'll have to see how it plays out.

Just out of curiosity, let me be the first to offer myself up to a dev-smack by asking the inevitable: any timeframe for when the planar areas will be released?

[deathdearler1]

i have a few chars on ns3.5 and the best one if have is a druid/shifter/monk. that little dude can get over 100ac with the right setup of gear and immunities. on ns4 though i'm seeing my power builds eat up all the mobs except casters. of course then there is the ever present mage with the invis/darkness/igms that is just out for the gear. i don't think you should make a char for what is best, just make one for how you feel that day and see what happens with it. you might be suprised what kind of nonsense will rule the day. on my tester mod i made a pale master cleric that can kill several people all at the same time because of immunities and such. just think i don't even like pale masters.

[Terminal Insanity]

I'll say this right now.

The level cap scared alot of people away, and those who did stay only stayed because they were promised that it would be raised "soon"

If the cap gets put back on, stops rising, or is held at what it is, i don't think you'll ever catch me playing there again, allong with alot of other people

[JustDrow]

Hmmmm.... Strange as it may sound alot of other people left shortly after the cap was lifted.

You'd be surprised as to the opiions of players and how many actual liked the cap.

Bring the cap back and I think you'd see more people coming back for the challenge of it.

[deathdearler1]

a big suprise is several ppl that i know have stopped playing NS just because they feel it will never get done or even close to that. i have stopped playing consistently because there is no one on anymore. things are strange and lonely now that the new areas opened up.

[DrakhanValane]

I'll say this right now.

If the cap gets put back on, stops rising, or is held at what it is, i don't think you'll ever catch me playing there again

Threats usually work best if there's a downside to not complying. :P

[Terminal Insanity]

I'll say this right now.

If the cap gets put back on, stops rising, or is held at what it is, i don't think you'll ever catch me playing there again

Threats usually work best if there's a downside to not complying.

heh true.

there was usualy 15 people average online
then i got banned
i come back and theres 2 or 3 at peek times

I'd also like to point out taht every bloody time i login to an empty server, it fills up with people that want to kill me.

Alot of people will hate to admit it, but i keep people buisy. I piss them off yeah, but they have fun trying to take me out.
Remove me, and people like me, and you'll end up with a bunch of non-PvP players that complain about everything. Keep the player base hard with proper PvP, the way it was ment to be played. no pvp-specific rules should EVER be needed. some RP rules, sure, obviously an exploit/bug rule, but what exactly in PvP requires rules? nothing. its a bloody fight to the death, not a WWF wrestling match...

[lordshelt]

The correct name is now WWE due to the lawsuit filed by the World Wildlife Foundation

[Terminal Insanity]

If you gear a zone to hold against high level heavily armored fighters, high level dexers will suffer

Theres a number of areas like that... i think once more areas start getting put in, they could play with the XP script more and include a calculation to consider your build vs the mob's... just add/remove a % of xp based on what your dex/str/cha/wis is, vs the enemy's

this way if a dex fighter kills something that is like 10x harder for him, then a str fighter of equal level, the dex fighter will get extra compensation for it

[Eva]

40 levels in, my opinion, ruins servers. Devs can never balance a server because of them. If you gear a zone to hold against high level heavily armored fighters, high level dexers will suffer and will now become mostly back up characters in a group as archers or will be forced into group play .

totally not true, i've been making alot, yepyep near massive number of different characters, it isn't always so that dex based characters at high lvl are weaker than strength based. A few exaples to think of, and they not as weak as you think, if you can handle them properly: Dex/wis based Cleric/rogue with domains that give you cats grace and haste; dex/wisbased druid/shadow dancer; dual kama wielding ranger/monks( high speed attack machine); etc etc, if you use some imagination and you can make you a near big gun based on dex and that can deal massive damage to and good survivors.

[JesterOI]

Ranger? Give me a break.
Use fighter for the extra feats and weapon specialization.

[Lokey]

Ranger? Give me a break.
Use fighter for the extra feats and weapon specialization.

Checked out Ranger's spell list? They get some good protections, as well as full BAB, d10 hit die, and a bugged interpretation of class feats. It's a pretty good package, just fails to be as good as Weapon Munchkin like pretty much every other class