What is wrong with/missing and needed in NS4?

Artanis · Post by **Artanis** » Mon Jul 19, 2004 6:30 pm

I will probably get some backlash for saying this but here it goes….

I would say, stop allowing rival faction members to party up. I have been playing more often the last couple weeks and have found that with minimal effort I was able to find others to group with, my own faction or ally (close to my level). I play SL and AO, so I am on 2 different servers. I just think the faction aspect is one the best things here. I have been hoping to see some sort of pre-arranged group fights, a fight over a certain section of land or something like that where the winner will get their guards to become stationed there and basically the land is under the victors “control”. I had some friends join this server and they chose different factions, so instead of forming a party we made new chars and started the process together, a pain at first couple levels but now just a great time and when they aren’t around I have other chars that I use and just look for allies to party with.

As far as PK, I usually like it, sometimes the timing sucks if I walked a long way but other then that it’s great. My only complaint is disarming weapon theft, which I believe is being investigated right now (read something on bug tracker).

Hmmm maybe I should have put this in ideas and suggestions forum, just going by topic on this post

Brennan068 · Post by **Brennan068** » Mon Jul 19, 2004 6:37 pm

Ok, I'll make an attempt to drag this one kicking and screaming back on topic (although I love a pk argument as much as the next guy

)

In my opinion, the biggest problem with NS4 Beta right now is the lack of constructive feedback from the devs/dms. I'm sure that they are working hard on fixing bugs and balance issues, but they don't say when something is done and they tend to go off and adjust things that are not listed as problems anywhere that I know of.

ATI posted a perfectly valid suggestion that we look at and discuss the pros/cons of the possibility of limited haste items which was addressed by a "if you want to go faster you aren't having fun or you want to exploit look for another server" (paraphrased). This, imo, was not a constructive response to a rational suggestion. All contributers to the thread were clear about avoiding permahaste items and trying to find a sensible way to get a quick boost of speed once in a while.

The final decision on what to work on when obviously lies with the owners and devs; but if they kept the players aware of priorities and when / what changes are complete I think it would go a long way to easing angst.

I've heard vague rumours of people being punished for exploiting / griefing... I understand the reason for keeping this private; but I think it should be rethought. If drastic measures (banning for x days etc.) are taken as punishment, the public often knows about the crime, but not the punishment. So, they think that nothing is being done. A stickied thread here in the forums of crime & punishment would go a long way to showing that favourtism is not being exercised.

I think the worst problem right now is perception. The world is amazing. But, if the response to suggestions is go find another server, and if people perceive favourtism; I think the world may be in trouble.

JesterOI · Post by **JesterOI** » Mon Jul 19, 2004 6:51 pm

An important thing to iron would be the "Diablo" tactic...
You know the, "I'm gonna [censored] out and relog with my uber 1337 higher levelled character" "tactic".

Post by **Lokey** » Tue Jul 20, 2004 1:40 am

Brennan068 wrote:ATI posted a perfectly valid suggestion that we look at and discuss the pros/cons of the possibility of limited haste items which was addressed by a "if you want to go faster you aren't having fun or you want to exploit look for another server" (paraphrased). This, imo, was not a constructive response to a rational suggestion. All contributers to the thread were clear about avoiding permahaste items and trying to find a sensible way to get a quick boost of speed once in a while.

I've read too many argumentitive posts from ATI and Terminal Insanity demanding things that result in Mary Sue characters, something I don't want to design for. The post asks for haste not movement speed, and it's an insult to us that we wouldn't realize how it would be abused. It also implies that there's only a few places I want to be, the rest of the mod is filler.

Jester wrote:An important thing to iron would be the "Diablo" tactic...
You know the, "I'm gonna [censored] out and relog with my uber 1337 higher levelled character" "tactic".

Since this post is kinda about low level character killing (I'm guessing here), maybe there is a point to it. I see it as pure metagaming--and metagaming causes 90% of our headaches (takes minimally about 10 times as long to make anything--then there's the problem of removing something that is nice in gameplay because 1% of players will abuse anything as possible...).

Brennan068 · Post by **Brennan068** » Tue Jul 20, 2004 8:31 am

Lokey wrote:
Brennan068 wrote:ATI posted a perfectly valid suggestion that we look at and discuss the pros/cons of the possibility of limited haste items which was addressed by a "if you want to go faster you aren't having fun or you want to exploit look for another server" (paraphrased). This, imo, was not a constructive response to a rational suggestion. All contributers to the thread were clear about avoiding permahaste items and trying to find a sensible way to get a quick boost of speed once in a while.
I've read too many argumentitive posts from ATI and Terminal Insanity demanding things that result in Mary Sue characters, something I don't want to design for. The post asks for haste not movement speed, and it's an insult to us that we wouldn't realize how it would be abused. It also implies that there's only a few places I want to be, the rest of the mod is filler.

Yes, he did ask for a limited form of haste in his original post, but the thread very quickly evolved to what the intention was... the ability to move faster on a limited basis. There are several reasons to want to move faster and what is "filler" at level 10 wasn't at level 2... or, sometimes you just need a break to get past something that will own you at your level in order to get to something that is very well suited for your level. Sometimes you just want to get to home base to sell and log out; you don't want to fight your way there if for a short burst you can dodge the low level mobs in your way. I realize that there are people who would try to abuse this kind of ability; I think that was why the thread was there to discuss and determine ways to implement without the abuse.

I understand that some people can get on others nerves and that leads to that kind of a response in a web forum. What I'm suggesting is that it leads to poor perception; it looks like the ideas and suggestions forum is not there for discussion of ideas and suggestions if you know what I mean.

Kelli · Post by **Kelli** » Tue Jul 20, 2004 9:46 am

What are "Mary Sue" characters?

-BannyD- · Post by **-BannyD-** » Tue Jul 20, 2004 2:22 pm

i dont really believe that there is much of a problem here. the only thing thats disappointing is the post lvl 20 lvling. killing rats to xp isnt exactly fun so we end up making new characters to lvl. however, a lot of our builds do not get good until after lvl 20 where the xp is slow and tedious. so basically what im saying is...i want those epic lvl areas :

sheriffbugs · Post by **sheriffbugs** » Tue Jul 20, 2004 5:37 pm

This is a fantastic mod. I would look for just two things to push it forward:

1. I look forward to the New content/Planar Areas. I find it amazing that people will kill rats and beatles to go from 20th-40th level.

2. The death of Death Magic. I am all for making casters viable, even strong. I just see so much hinging on "making the save vs death" over and over. Or requiring you to be a caster for temp immunity. Let's face it "save vs death" is not as exciting as a battle or a quest.

trent · Post by **trent** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 11:57 am

well be it slave or okie i have gotten to a point where i have just thrown away all respect for lvl and have started killing any and all emeny factions i come across in high traffic areas. if you are low lvl you should remain closer to your own faction city to lvl ... going to giant mountian at 5th lvl
is just asking to get killed. i used to have respect for others and ask to duel before i pvp but not anymore . i still however try to not use disarm in pvp and if i do i leave the weapon where it falls and move on . it is the ruthless killing i have seen okies, slaves , and just other high lvl chars do that has driven me to this action . it seems as if the gods favor it so if i kill enough enemy factions members i might be unoutcasted from my own

Throst54 · Post by **Throst54** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 12:53 pm

you people realize that it IS NOT HARD to SAVE VS DEATH magic!?

build a firggun decent character!!! this isnt NS3 where u dont have to worry about saves! put some points into wisdom! take strong soul, luck of heros, great fortitude! high fort doesnt only save you from death magic either! it has many uses!

some regluar old WM shouldnt be able to kill a mage, esp b/c a WM high saves are reflex.

and those of you which just absolutely refuse to learn how to get decent saves, DRINK A POTION. and w/ your WM that is SO great that can critz for oh so much.. try to kill the mage while they are busy dispelling your buffs.

it's one thing to be killed by some1 8+ lvls higher.... but equal lvls against death magic is no big trial, esp since after lvl 20 your saves go up and (currently) a mages DC doesnt budge.

Wolfarus · Post by **Wolfarus** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 1:10 pm

Well, lots of reasons why NS4 isnt the RP'er bonanza that people hope.
Main reason is its still beta. Allot of peeps wont settle into a beta community. Once we get to final release and the dust settles, im sure we'll see a growth.

Second is the lack of high lvl areas. Once you get to 20+, there is NOTHING to do but PvP. That in itself is a big cause for all the posts about griefing, ect. People get bored. NObody on here can say in any honesty that they havnt screwed around with the low lvls out of sheer boredom. The measure is how MUCH and to what extent that happens. Personally, i have 3 new to moderate lvl chars that im playing around with. I only bring my high lvl'er out for city defense, duels or just messing around with my friends.

The okies are another prob, weither or not the Dm's / Dev's want to admit it. There are a cple okie's out there whom ive had no probs with, but they are the minority. The "bad boys" of the okie circle constantly PK people who are no threat to them, "claim" areas as their own and crowd out anybody who tries to explore / lvl there, ive seen them run by, bring a player down to near death so the mob they are fightin kills them easily and ends up costing xp / gold. They steal if they can, and take pleasure in generally distrupting people's gaming.

This is PvP people claim, expect it. Yes i expect pvp, enough posts have been devoted to this concept, we GET IT. But i dont expect grievious behavior, or behavior that gives new players the impression that certain groups are allowed to terrorize anybody they choose w/o much, IF ANY visible reprecussions. I have NEVER agree'd with the "do the punishing behind closed doors away from johhny public" take on things. Ive served as admin for a total of 4 CS / SOF2 servers, and this way of doing things has done more harm then good. The "everyday" members of our community NEED TO SEE that people who intentionally disrupt the community time after time, or constantly break the rules to suit themselves ARE being punished, and not ignored or swept under the carpet. Now i dont see this being neccessary for every little thing, but certain people are way past due for a public tar n' feathering.

The other main reason i can see people leaving NS is the lack of Dev presence. They dont see the mod creators around, they are bound to think that maybe the mod is for the most part doomed, or maybe t hey have given up on THIS particular mod and are working on another. Lokey is the only Dev who've ive seen for nearly 2 months now, and the only admins making their presence known on a reg basis is Lady C and DV.
If Joran, DD fire and the rest would make a post now and then, apprasing us of how it goes that would go a long way. People dont expect you guys to be here day in, day out. But letting us know yer still alive, and NS is still being planned as a full, perm. mod is always a good thing.

Terminal Insanity · Post by **Terminal Insanity** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 5:13 pm

Hulgaru wrote:Terminal Insanity is as guilty of Okie crimes as Okies are. n00bs shout about being slain by Nominus Pasha on Giant Mountain. How does that make Terminal any better than an Okie? It doesn't. That, and Okies don't publicly whine about getting our fictional characters killed online. Oh well.

I dont whine about being killed... the "whineing" you hear from me is me defending myself after someone brags about an oviously cheap kill, or when the okie goes on lieing about how he stole my staff of dead, when i know he dident because 1) i still have both of mine, and 2) i never carry the staff of dead around okies... i swap to a newb stick so they can waiste an attack on disarm.

Hulgaru wrote:Not to mention... if anyone looks at the real conversation where Okie Reagan sends tells to Terminal... besure to check out that wehate.org directory, and see the original screen shot... where Terminal Responds to Reagan with a thinly veiled threat. I believe "Do you have any idea how much you will regret that" was what Nominus says in response... To me that indicates the healthier style of play... revenge when higher level... as opposed to "Justice-By-Forums!!!"

i said that after he killed me in avendell, and i was only meaning to lvlup and then get my revenge... but when he started calling me a liar in shout... i posted it in the forums.

DrakhanValane wrote:To me an Okie=Slave=Term. Not much difference as far as I can tell except minor style differences (and that varies by each player in their respective groups as well).

Im nothing like an okie.
I do enjoy PKing, but i try to limit myself to people that are above lvl 10, and i DO help lower lvls out. Ive healed lots of enemy faction lowbies when they are bleeding out, ive given lots of nice gear away to lowbies, including ones from enemy factions.
The difference between me and an okie? I dont swear in shout constantly, i dont try to PK lower lvls "for fun", i dont PK in avendell, i dont follow one person around and PK him over and over, i dont stone people so they loose XP, i dont use exploits, and i help people.

But it IS a pvp mod, and just because i PK someone doesnt make me an okie.

Post by **DM Fire** » Wed Jul 21, 2004 5:50 pm

I apologize for not making daily posts to the forum, but I have never been one to make alot of posts. DV and LadyC have a great handle on the forums and that is excellent with me.

I am in game basically every day. Remember though, I can be there as a God and you are unlikely to even realize it unless I accidently hit that darn space bar and pause the game.... lol, or I am on as a player.

Enjoy the mod for what it is, have patience, and continue testing and tweaking your builds. Post bugs as you find them and together the mod will become what we all expect it to be.

bongoblue · Post by **bongoblue** » Thu Jul 22, 2004 12:14 am

Kelli wrote:What are "Mary Sue" characters?

The first instance I ever read was of an author placing themselves as a character in a novel they wrote.

bongoblue · Post by **bongoblue** » Thu Jul 22, 2004 12:15 am

JesterOI wrote:An observation I have made is that it is no fun when you want to sit back and relax and play some NS and keep getting pk'd by people that you have no chance whatsoever of defending yourself

I made that same point months ago... but this is a pvp server.

I would still like a way to opt out of pvp. Of course, that would mean my characters are not allowed to pvp anyone else's characters as well.