Shifter fix?

Velkynn · Post by **Velkynn** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 10:09 am

Hey there. I see that the Circle faction will have exclusive use of the Shifter class. With all of the other tweaks and changes made, is it safe to assume that the bugs associated with shifters have been fixed? Off the top of my head, here are the big ones:

Server save wiping out item abilities

Item properties not stacking properly on the shifted creatures hide (i.e. armor class suffers cause none of the bonuses stack, only the highest of deflection, dodge, etc.)

Certain items not transferring properties at all (gloves/bracers, tower shields, and so on)

I would like to try a shifter on a PW, but the above mentioned bugs make them virtually unplayable.

Klench B'Tok · Post by **Klench B'Tok** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 10:20 am

The server save issue is being fixed in 1.63 patch as for the rest I'm not sure.

Ting · Post by **Ting** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 1:11 pm

The server wiping out item abilities is a serious bug, but I don't think I understand the other problems you listed.

"Item properties not stacking properly on the shifted creatures hide (i.e. armor class suffers cause none of the bonuses stack, only the highest of deflection, dodge, etc.)"

The same armor bonuses do not stack regularly; if you have two items that give a +1 deflection bonus you still only have a total of a +1 deflection bonus to AC. They only stack if they are of different types.

"Certain items not transferring properties at all (gloves/bracers, tower shields, and so on)"

Depending on your transformation, certain items will be absorbed into your new form. This basically means that they are held in limbo because they don't make sense for what you changed into. For instance, suppose you changed into a tiger. Tigers do not use tower shields, so it would be absurd for you to get the bonuses your shield offered. You shouldn't get bracers, boots, cloak, or helmet bonuses either.

dond · Post by **dond** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 1:21 pm

Ting wrote:The server wiping out item abilities is a serious bug, but I don't think I understand the other problems you listed.

"Item properties not stacking properly on the shifted creatures hide (i.e. armor class suffers cause none of the bonuses stack, only the highest of deflection, dodge, etc.)"

The same armor bonuses do not stack regularly; if you have two items that give a +1 deflection bonus you still only have a total of a +1 deflection bonus to AC. They only stack if they are of different types.

"Certain items not transferring properties at all (gloves/bracers, tower shields, and so on)"

Depending on your transformation, certain items will be absorbed into your new form. This basically means that they are held in limbo be
cause they don't make sense for what you changed into. For instance, suppose you changed into a tiger. Tigers do not use tower shields, so it would be absurd for you to get the bonuses your shield offered. You shouldn't get bracers, boots, cloak, or helmet bonuses either.

er, you're wrong on most points btw, i suggest you read the shifter faq on gamefaqs for more info.

when shifted, forms only take the highest ac from any ac type on items. none of it stacks. eg. in normal form, say you have +5 dodge/+5 deflection/+5 armor/ +5 shield. when you shift, all you get is +5. that's why a monk lvl is so important for shifters, they need that wis ac boost, but ns4 doesn't allow it, so the forms WILL suck unless it's not bioware default.

even items that give ability boni don't stack (+1 str on armor and +1 str on helm will be +2 to str in normal form, but only +1 in shifted form).

all forms merge armor(including dire tiger) except the bugged epic gargoyle shape who doesn't have a hide at all. armor being helm/shield/plate. some forms merge items (rings, cloak, belt and boots i think) and weapons.

there is also a bug in the script (i think it's for druid shapes) where tower shields don't count towards armor. the script contains a typo type error where it checks for small shield twice instead of checking for tower shield.

i'm also a huge shifter fan, they're a really fun class. not really a powergamers style though, as they require tons of patience and understanding of forms to be effective.
problem is the bugs, and underpowered forms but they're all scripts, so it can be fixed. (and i hope it is!)

Ting · Post by **Ting** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 1:32 pm

Ahh, I see. When converting the armor to hide all armor bonuses are changed into deflection modifiers, which do not stack.

In any case, I would not worry. The devs have it under control.

DrakhanValane · Post by **DrakhanValane** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 3:26 pm

You don't have to worry about attribute boni not stacking, stats are exclusive to one piece of equipment in NS4 anyway (I.e. INT on helms).

The amount of patience and understanding required has nothing to do with whether it's a powergamer class. If it's the strongest class, powergamers will learn.

Knightwing4 · Post by **Knightwing4** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 5:22 pm

Having played BoW, i've had a lot of experience with shifters, let me say this: unless you want 100+ AC dragons (seriously, i seriously mean it, on BoW dragons without monk lvls get about 70 AC, add in monk lvls AND stacking AC and GG unhittable), the AC thing needs to stay as it is. BTW that shifter server save bug is a major one, though not as big as the "person joins party all actions stop" bug.

BTW, this bug also occurs when you die while shifted

Klench B'Tok · Post by **Klench B'Tok** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 6:13 pm

Knightwing4 wrote: "person joins party all actions stop" bug.

That bugs supposed to be getting fixed in 1.63 too - Yay! Biowares finally getting round to the old bugs

Velkynn · Post by **Velkynn** » Wed Apr 14, 2004 9:02 pm

I agree with the point about dragons getting crazy AC, but its a non-issue with respect to NS4 for one simple reason.

The only faction that can take shifter is the Circle, and monks are not allowed in the faction.

Spura · Post by **Spura** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 5:06 am

Knightwing4 wrote:Having played BoW, i've had a lot of experience with shifters, let me say this: unless you want 100+ AC dragons (seriously, i seriously mean it, on BoW dragons without monk lvls get about 70 AC, add in monk lvls AND stacking AC and GG unhittable), the AC thing needs to stay as it is. BTW that shifter server save bug is a major one, though not as big as the "person joins party all actions stop" bug.

BTW, this bug also occurs when you die while shifted

100 AC dragon is impossible. Look if AC types stack shifted + monk class + dragon melds all items= 90+ AC dragon possible. If AC types don't stack and monk is allowed= 60+ AC dragon. If monk is not allowed and AC types don't stack=NS4 currently=45+ AC dragon. Also dragon doesn't meld weapon and with crazyass %physical immunities dragon will do no damage while having up to 50 AC, really great, yeah.

Other chars stack immunities and shifters don't. If I have 5% piercing 10% piercing armor and 5 % piercing shield, shifter will only get 10% I believe instead of 20%. Devs claim NS4 is toned down. Bullshit! In NS3 you could get max 15% physical immunity on one items and here I have 15% physical immunity on a LVL 5 :shock:

item(enchanted steel armor). I remeber I had hard time getting 20% immunity stacked in NS3 here with lvl 5 gear I can get that easily.

Also NONE of the shifter shapes use braces so shifters will get no STR bonus items(devs could fix this with a script).

I don't know what the devs are thinking.
So without monk, shifters will have 40 to 60 AC max while having, and without extra monk attacks unarmed shapes suck compared to weapon using shapes. Highest epic shapes are unarmed(construct and dragon) and the will be useless since they mostly meld less items and the armed shapes will do more damage. I won't be able to get fighter levels as well for feats(which I will now need to get IKD since I can't take 6 monk). So you think it is fair that shifters lose bracers, have their 2 highest epic abilities made crap, have 40 to 60 AC when other classes can get over that without breaking sweat( I can make 101 AC char with better AB than shifter with +5 AC items)???

Also even without monk, you took out many multiclassing options for shifters.

Spura · Post by **Spura** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 5:22 am

Generaly The Circle is severely limiting(to 5 classes) unlike other factions and gets nothing for it! Why the hell do mages have fighter class and druids don't? RDD can be multiclassed with anything, great! But you limit shifters, while we all know how much more powerful RDD multis are. Lets face facts. By making monk illegal in TC you only made shifter monks illegal, any other class mix like cleric monk and other way more powerful monk multis that shifter are still reachable in other factions. Like if you want to be a druid, you can go to last alliance or ragnar's kin or ancient ones and make a druid/monk which you can't in The Circle. Where's the logic behind this thing??? Best druids can be made outside circle???? Also while druid shifter(TC obviously) dragon shape has 3 attacks per round, I can make druid 39 monk 1 (3 factions outside TC) with dragon shape with 5 attacks per round+flurry+ free IKD(2 feats) and level 39 casting!!! You call that balance? For all the bragging about how neat these factions are fixed up, you can't even make TC the best choice for druids, much less make shifters worthwhile. Jeebus H. Christofferson!!!

Quiett · Post by **Quiett** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 5:42 am

While I don't have the same passion about it. I have to agree with Supra.

AlienOverlord · Post by **AlienOverlord** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 6:29 am

Spura wrote: Also while druid shifter(TC obviously) dragon shape has 3 attacks per round, I can make druid 39 monk 1 (3 factions outside TC) with dragon shape with 5 attacks per round+flurry+ free IKD(2 feats) and level 39 casting!!!

Good points except you'd need 6 levels of monk for ikd. But seeing as how casters get little gain after level 20, why not go druid 20/ monk 20 and get way more movement speed, more ac bonus, magic resistance, and get unarmed attacks that pierce +5 resistance (though I think bioware is giving dragon form this in the next patch).

But, yeah, I dropped my circle druid/monk/shifter build when I realized I couldn't take monk and started a druid monk in AO. I'll just have to settle for a bear with 27 str instead of minotaurs and baby dragons.

crippe13 · Post by **crippe13** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 6:46 am

by AlienOverlord -

Good points except you'd need 6 levels of monk for ikd. But seeing as how casters get little gain after level 20, why not go druid 20/ monk 20 and get way more movement speed, more ac bonus, magic resistance, and get unarmed attacks that pierce +5 resistance (though I think bioware is giving dragon form this in the next patch).

But, yeah, I dropped my circle druid/monk/shifter build when I realized I couldn't take monk and started a druid monk in AO. I'll just have to settle for a bear with 27 str instead of minotaurs and baby dragons.

Now I need to go look things up again.. but I thought druid/shifter forms gained power based on druid/shifter levels... I know at least the little wyrmling TRIES to get better

If the dragon form doesn't advance, you're right about taking 20 monk for the speed and resistances... It all depends on what you're trying to achieve (rp- or pvp monster)

Spura · Post by **Spura** » Fri Jun 11, 2004 8:14 am

Shapes do get better with shifter levels. They get better DC on some abilities but such. But since DMs just love to give monsters immunities and/or 50 saves to make them immune to mages taking pure shifter for max DCs is stupid. Yeah I am thinking about AO druid as well. They way I see it DMs stuck some of the most underplayed classes into one faction. Of course many people play bard but not pure bard or bard druids or such. And only good options for shifter now is either barb for rage(but no heavy armor or feats like fighter, no hide, no tumble, no AC, no evasion, no extra unarmed attacks) or ranger(YOU KNOW HOW MANY SHAPES DOUBLEWIELD?? NONE!) for some hide and ms and disc and some extra favored enemies. The only good The Circle build are AAs. Devs need to do something about this. The result should be that druids belong in TC, and they have 2 options: nerf druids elsewhere, buff TC druids. And I am not talking stats buffs here I am talking multiclassing options. All those limits for TC do is shaft shifter cos all other classes in TC can be played better elsewhere. Shifter is the only reason anyone would ever play TC. :evil:

And me playing shifter..... Well I hear about this unaligned option and it fits monk shifter plans completely.