RFC: Proposed Class Changes

Sagil · Post by **Sagil** » Sat May 22, 2004 12:39 am

Also, if we're adding Clang's suggstion of ensuring that there are enough levels left, why force people to take those 5 or 10 levels in a row? We could just put in a level check to make sure that they have to take them sometime. Then the monk, paladin, monk, paladin .. levelling style would be possible as well for those who like it. :roll:

Post by **TGPO** » Sat May 22, 2004 12:58 am

For pally/monk 5 levels minumum sounds good to me. The next step I would like to see in that though is any and all PrC's have the same restriction impossed.

As well as the final level check that Clang suggested.

djshale · Post by **djshale** » Sat May 22, 2004 1:01 am

just a though, but why not just 4 lvls to maximize the AB of rogue/cleric types... that fifth level will cost a player 1 AB in pre epic... unless of course this what you intended...

also X consecutive levels is good if you want to prevent taking classes to maximize skills at certain intervals (i.e. rogue at 2/7/12/17... to max tumble) but X total levels is ok if all you want to prevent is abuse of classes with lots of bonuses at lvl 1...

dond · Post by **dond** » Sat May 22, 2004 2:24 am

though im not in disagreement with this idea, how far will it go? it's just 2 classes now, but there's tons and tons of other 'uber' builds that you can do.....hell, any class can be used to twink up a build, except for maybe harpers lol

i'd suggest working within the existing faction limitations.

some factions have immense bonuses by be able to use these builds (ie LA can do sorc/pally/monk, but MA can't), so why not 'beef' up say the PM class that's exclusive to MA to combat the sorc build. you can add caster lvls for the PM class, make necromancy spells more effective via a job bonus if you have PM levels or some such (can even limit sorc/pally to be unable to cast necro spells as it goes against the pally code)

another example would be The Circle. because of no monks allowed (druid/monk/DD

), druids in here (especially since they're the only faction with the shifter) are much weaker. add benefits to the shifter forms via job bonuses, circle-only items/shapes and the like would help.

not saying it's a bad idea, just saying that it'll need to apply to alot more than just paladins and monks, and would probably change the concept of multiclassing as it is now

Bob · Post by **Bob** » Sat May 22, 2004 4:30 am

Any way to work things so that on level 40 you have to take a level in a class you already have 5 or more levels in? That would solve your back-ending problem.

Post by **Paddy** » Sat May 22, 2004 6:29 am

I seem to be in a minority here but I'm against this. I am a powergamer and this rule seems to stand on you idea that this mod should be free to play as people want, PG or RP. If RP can't think of a good reason to take one monk level (note in real life 1000's of young chinese kids become shoulin monks, learn to kick [censored] then drop out just before they take their final vows in which they would promise to live a life hardship for the rest of their lives and go off to be very well payed bodygaurds and stunt actors!) then they don't have to but if I can or don't feel the need to why limit me?

I'm not that oppsed to the idea in that if you impliment it being a PG I'll think of a different good build that does not need any monk levels or uses 5 monk levels, this won't stop PG's from making "twinky" build it will just move the posts a bit, where will it stop then?

just to be fair and you know where i'm coming from my main character at the moment is level 20 and has 9 fighter 10 DD and 1 monk...rest will all be DD

Llew Silverhand · Post by **Llew Silverhand** » Sat May 22, 2004 8:43 am

AW, there go my munchkins... lol Eitherway I do agree with the idea, because hey this will make the overall game more balanced, and I do think the 5 levels would be better. For example take the shadowdancer class. As it currently stands there is NOTHING going for it other than HiPS, so requiring 10levels for it, WHILE there's still a lot of true seeing items in game, wouldn't be worth it... Now if one were to get rid of all those helms allowing you to cast true seeing and made HiPS a true asset, then 10levels would be a legitimate sacrifice... hehe The problem with HiPS is that pc's can always avoid it if they want to and are mid-level. Works great against monsters, but from what I can tell this is supposed to be a PvP server and Shadowdancer is an unbeleivably useful class because of HiPs, and yet this is negatede by casters who always buff with true seeing. Hmmm, this post has once again sorta wandered off topic...... well if it's too much let me know and I'l try to be careful, but, do implement this sytem, it'll make building your char a lot more complex. And help the poor shadowdancers, cut down on true seeing lol.

Arjento · Post by **Arjento** » Sat May 22, 2004 8:45 am

Yep, I think this is a great idea.

Denort · Post by **Denort** » Sat May 22, 2004 8:48 am

The slippery slope of mandating limits on what is and is not powergaming.
Already in this thread we have gone from 5 levels on 2 classes to 10 levels on all classes. While I can not deny that, in particular, the sorc/paladin combo and the multitude of monk issues are a problem, enforcing a certain number of levels is A Bad Thing (tm).

A minimum of 10 levels is quite over the top. How do you make a level 30 arcane archer with any class but bard?

Perhaps this type of debate should be held after everyone gets to see what the proposed single class items are like? It might be that the paladin saves bonus is not worth giving up single class sorcerer items for.

As far as HiPS is concerned, as long as combat locks are maintained even when line of sight is broken, HiPS should be easily available to rangers, rogues and any other stealth character. The "problem" with HiPS is everyone dumping spare points into Tumble and UMD instead of Spot or Listen.

Back on track though, the problem with these kinds of arbitary restrictions is that they quite often will never end. Once one problem power combo is gone, the next one will come to the front of the line and be dealt with. Eventually you will not need single class items to encourage single class characters, it will be the only option left. :wink:

Æ · Post by Æ » Sat May 22, 2004 9:14 am

this isn't necessary for all prestige classes... For instance no one would spend 7 feats to attain the +1 AB and Ki damage 1/day you get with one level of weapon master. The WM gets nothing else until level 5 anyway, when he gets his extra multiplyer.

Dyson · Post by **Dyson** » Sat May 22, 2004 12:01 pm

Bad Idea. There are already a lot of conditions on character building, adding ANOTHER layer of complexity is just another needless hoop.

You take a level of Paladin or Monk. Really, so what? You get nifty abilities but does that really "break" something? 3 levels of Rogue is abusive now? Others have called it a slippery slope and I agree. I've heard about other servers that started like this and then every time someone comes up with a new combo wham here comes the nerf bat. I would find that frustrating more than anything else.

You are also asking for a lot of oversight from your DM's. How easy is it for a DM to see what the last level chosen is on any given player?

As for 1 level of Bard or Sorc with RDD, I hate to break it to you folks but RDD is and always will be intended as a MELEE prestige class both in NWN and PnP. The spontaneous casting requirement is a) flavor, and b) a built in cost for the large benefits of the PrC. 1 level of a spontaneous class is definitely a valid/non "cheese" build. Forcing someone to take a 5 level hit can severly impact the build, ie: you can no longer get 4 attacks by 20th unless you delay RDD to epic since RDD has a medium BAB progression. I don't have to tell the fighter types out there that a 4 BAB hit on a build is big. The Strength boost balances that out but it is still a big cost just to break even. When I was building my RDD I couldn't WAIT to get my wings

Waiting till post 20 for it? Not fun. It is still about fun right?

PM...well PM is a different story. If Bio ever figured out how to fix the 1/2 caster level progression then it would work as intended, a caster PrC.

So, in conclusion, here is the philosophy that I think the dev team should follow when dealing with in game play and character guidelines: KISS

Throst54 · Post by **Throst54** » Sat May 22, 2004 1:43 pm

paladin and monk- 10 lvls is too much, 5 would be fine, tho 9 shud be max. (leave it to them to be smart and take the 6th lvl...)
rogue- 6 is fair id' think.
bard/sorc/wiz- i think lvl 3 is good here, because, really, an AA shouldnt have to take 10 lvls to take the class... is it possible to let multiclass to AA after 3 lvls and rdd/pm only after 5?
shadowdancer- 5 lvls sounds fair enuff

dyson... realize that it isnt the DMs doing this.. it's automated.

yes, but do you realize what just having evasion does for a character dyson? w/ evasion and high ref save it makes a charater nearly invunerable to about a 1/3 of a mage's spell book.

Acce · Post by **Acce** » Sat May 22, 2004 2:25 pm

If NS4 wants to pursue this idea of reducing the amount of munchkin builds etc. it's a nice idea. However I STRONGLY think that if there's someone is forced to take a minimum of 5 levels of 2nd/3rd class then this should apply whenever he chooses to do so. in other words, 39/1 build should be changed to 35/5 builds...

This way you'll really get the munchkin build, otherwise it will only be a tiny step on the way. Most classes gains ALOT when taking a 2nd class at the maximum lvl of their character builds as they can more or less maximize all important builds. Doing that really improves the classes in a way that favor traditionally strong classes. Clerics and mages gets (if they have enough INT, but good builds do) discipline, listen, tumble etc.

Just take a look at BOW, ppl play for weeks to get to lvl 39-40 before taking "the 3rd class" in order to maximize the chars anyway. If there's a way to create a 'better' character, ppl will take the pain doing it.

(Of course, this will completely remove the 38/1/1 builds, if I understood the proposal correctly, which is a nice :twisted:

)

I also think that this should apply to all classes really otherwise the above proposal won't be that effective...

Lothy · Post by **Lothy** » Sat May 22, 2004 2:26 pm

why not just leave it alone?

nerfs nerfs nerfs....

i have to take pally at lvl 39.
this is a BAD idea, just leave it alone

Sakad the II · Post by **Sakad the II** » Sat May 22, 2004 3:36 pm

well I dont like the idea of this, I thnik i can play along with it, but I think forcing 5 to 10 level first is a bit much, the way I play the game it would just cramp my syle ( No i am not a power gamer, i just trying to have fun here like a singing assain, druidic pick pokects, and other unique builds) . But if they must happen then I will have to roll with it. Though I think they should be model after Throst's post I think those are extremely fair. Also the idea of actaully following the faction guidlines.
just my 1 cents[/i]