NS4 going PvM only?

[Tru3Fals3]

*as a side note, i havent built a toon without Tru3Fals3 in the login for over 3 years, so quit crying, you know whos killing you.

This is part of the problem. No, we don't really know who we are fighting most of the time against AO. That means everyone just gets blindly accused of dual logging, and when one player acts like a dick, everyone else becomes a dick by association since we don't know who said what.

then your problem isnt with me, and im not gonna tell someone else what they can/cant do in ao

[Shadowalker]

Points to ponder or optional perspectives based on last 3 pages.

Post Aork exodus there were several dedicated dwarves from down under who should not be forgotten. They not only kept the faith but thier deeds and words gave evedance 'honnerable heart' capable in RK. (pelf n crew, will edit in names later, its late)

I have really enjoyed the multiple perspectives of history, and would truely like to see a lot more input from the rest of the server in regards to thier perspectives and impressions. A new thread for this might pop up soon.

The TNC alliance has won the last 4 defender of relic events due to two major points:
1) A core of highly skilled vetrans retires that like U.S. Marines, never truely leave service.
2) High profile personalities, that bring in the numbers.
Hard to top a group with equal or near to skill in its front liners and a surplus of support that can actually field layers of defence and scouts.

CLAD is more user friendly than FoN faniticm, both both have thier perks.

The conection tween the founders of Fury and Twig began as most, questions put to shout and Twig responded. A year later and a new faction, they were shoping elsewhere to start, brought them to TC. Details to be shared at a later date, providing Delisha decrees an agree.

I am not familure with new Aorks from the last 6 months, so the following does not necessarly apply to one or any of them. This is a perspective of a player that arrived just after the Great Wipe, but years before the Big Burp. In reguards to the practice of toon sharing. It is a proven tactical advantage in group combat. There are however several down sides. For one, instead of actions and words of one player within a group being slowly attributed to that player. Every action and word of a member is attributed to all of that group (even if they dont share cuase how is an outsider to know). This effect is far worse than the typical "guilt by association". I am offering this perspective mainly to shed light on the bad feelings and impressions of the PwnD/?? community of the past. I urge all sides to consider this as we move foward.

There are many Twigs, for Twig is fertile and natures desire is plentifull. There had been hope that the many builds of same name would cause confusion, Twigs desire to be Twig and thus a Shifter did not help the cuase. Of note though is that no matter the Twig, it was and will only be Twig (one player, many Twigs, not many players and one Twig)

WB diastro, please send word 2 days in advance if heading into TNC lands, I will clear my calendar so you are met with a warm or webed welcome.

If the Elders and Veterans of a faction or guild do not police thier own then they condone and incourage bad behavior by thier indifferance.

/e1 Kudos for the BC and RR for honnoring the Firefly Saga.

[Revel]

But don't blame me for not knowing your history with the way that it has been presented to the rest of the server... Notice that everyone else took it as I said it and didn't correct me because that's the way it appeared. If you wanted the rest of the server to know all this, you should have said it years ago.

People have been posting to correct you when you have been mistaken. Several of us in fact. There is too much to correct sometimes that's why some things go unanswered. Please don’t take silence as agreement.

Until AO got the job bonuses, AORK almost exclusively operated through RK. RK has the flexibility to build in all alignments and the most classes and combinations of classes, which is a big attraction.

I'm sorry Monkey but this is incorrect and out of all the misconceptions you have, I chose this one to answer.
I had 3 AO toons at level 40 before the job tokens were finished. So did others.
I started in RK because I love dwarfs not because of the the class combinations etc. I started AO toons for a variation in scenery and to learn about other builds. Not because of any job token or bonuses, neither existed when I started in AO or for 2 years after.

Both you and Bargeld make a lot of statements on behalf of the server. It's just your opinions but that does not make it right. I am all for making the server better and promoting a healthy atmosphere but not to the degree of doing it all your way or no way.
I have partied with you Monkey on several occasions in your Lowbie Learners party and found you very controlling. This is not a cheap shot at you just some of us are not into role play and like to find out things ourselves even if it takes longer and can cause party wipes. That is part of the fun. Just saying that your way is not for everyone. And we all help new people from any faction this is not unique to Monkey.

LA players had a bad reputation back then, and they perpetuated it with their desire for confusion in player and toon names. Take RR for example... the original model put in place when they were created is that all toons ans players remain completely anonymous using some iteration of Reaver ._.+=/??\=+._. etc. Personally, I have always attributed dedicated anonymity as a mechanism to skirt exploits and rules and accountability.

Bargeld I believe this is a tactic so your opposition does not know what is coming. I could be wrong. I think however, your personal belief that it is dedicated to skirting exploits, rules and accountability is just jumping to conclusions, I believe it is YOUR personal opinion and not fact.
While we stand waiting to defend part of what we talk about is the correct way to behave on Ns4. What the rules are and what is considered bad form and tactics. I have no qualms in stating we have all made mistakes, made the wrong decisions at times. I chugged on my first raid and wont ever forget the storm of abuse that followed. I didn’t know better but to hear you tell the same story, you would say I was exploiting and bending the rules with no accountability!

This sever hosts a wide variety of opinions, most of which are not yours.

Thank you Twig for remembering some of the good past of RR. Pelf lives still and will always hold Twig and his shoots in high regard.

[Bargeld]

you always forget to mention the dual loggers and exploiters in your own guild bargeld.

Read the whole thread before you make claims that aren't true (no pun intended):

But I don't see why we are not allowed to dual log when there are multiloggers defending sl almost always.

When miner and lepis found vermin hiding RK relic in the tower of menzoduran (climbed it with makesafe) ... the guy shouted gfs I'm tired to be a octopus. Did we complain ? NO!. I just asked " just curiosity how much multibox can u go up to? " he answered : 8x .

One day KOS-MOS raided SL , picked a relic , slaughered everyone who chased from sl to nc, captured and found a cleric palemaster (the ones that if u build right have 62 ab 75 ac and epic warding) and a pure fighter. Killed em both, then the fighter which was a multi boxer logged a rogue sd, brought it to nc, respawned the fighter and brought in the rogue sd, a finesse way to change the raider within the 30 mins limit

That's all the same player, alka. He abides by the relog rules. On some other topics though, he had a bit more 'fight fire with fire' approach than the rest of us, and usually he limited that to targeting the actual players that had done it to him in the past... which was the case here with mamba. He held out playing here for a long time, but like most of the 'old' players, his time has come to move on, so all your problems with him and his style should be resolved.

And I don't mean to be bashing alka, he is one of the best players and persons that I have met in all my time here, but I have to reiterate my previous statements on page 4 of this thread in order to show true that i HAVE addressed the previous comments. I also want to address revel's comment about

People have been posting to correct you when you have been mistaken.

Yes you/they have. Regarding RR/RK, it's entirely been in this thread and never before. I've never talked about AO or RK history previous to this topic, at least not any time recently.

Everything I say is my opinion. I don't speak for the server, but I do know that a lot of the players in my alliance share my beliefs, and I am seeing that there are players outside my alliance who share similar beliefs as well. In the recent posts, you guys have decided to focus on all my statements about RK and RR history and to be honest, none of RK or RR history has been the focus at the beginning of this topic, nor has anyone's specific play style aside from dual logging. Dual logging was the entire focus of the first half of this thread and I really do hate to see this all get derailed because a couple RR guys got butt hurt by my general impressions and statements about their alliances and history. I don't need to apologize for my statements, but I have conceded already that I didn't know the entire truth. But, I have always stated my opinions and will continue to do so.

Also, I have spent time with mining and on my own, testing things and providing feedback for as long as I can remember. I am obviously opinionated and have not been shy with sharing my feelings and results with regards to previous changes, during, and before, mining's time as a dev. And this thread is the same thing. It's feedback about dual logging and it's feedback about the AO token.

I have led the DD guild for a number of years, with both Thorac and Alka by my side. They both trained me well in play style and ability and attitude for that role that I now hold on my own. I will damn well speak with authority and I will be high and mighty about my experiences and my opinions. One of the reasons is because, although you RK guys don't agree with or respect me, I know that many others do. I know that I have put in a good amount of time and effort with both friend and foe on this server, and I enjoy the relationships I have created. Throughout it all AORK players have NOT participated in any of that and have blindly trashed me and, from my experience and opinion (damn, do i really have to premise everything I say with that??) they have rarely participated constructively in the public eye.

Back to the topic and hand, trying to move forward over the past 3 pages of nonsense, many have obviously supported a commandment against dual log in PvP. Those who it would effect have come forward and basically said that they don't do it and it wouldn't effect them. So lets do it... amend the commandments and get rid of dual logging in PvP and lets all make the server a better environment and get back to playing. The whole point of this thread is that I, and others, have voiced that the landscape of PvP has changed for the worse in recent times, and I want to see that change.

[mining]

Ok, so, thoughts:

If we were to, have an experiment of, say, 1-2 months of "No dual logging in PvP", with its enforcement held to the same standard as the other PVP rules, and a scaling punishment system (say warning->day ban->week ban->account/toon deletion) to determine if this actually A) is functional and B) (more importantly) improves the standard of gameplay [if it doesn't, I have no interest in enforcing yet another rule which is probably on the shakiest grounds of all rules] and C) is enforceable + non-headache causing more often than not, would everyone be willing to give it a shot?

[Delisha Zrazorian]

would everyone be willing to give it a shot?

Yes! Fury is on board!

[Monkey]

Until AO got the job bonuses, AORK almost exclusively operated through RK. RK has the flexibility to build in all alignments and the most classes and combinations of classes, which is a big attraction.

I'm sorry Monkey but this is incorrect and out of all the misconceptions you have, I chose this one to answer.
I had 3 AO toons at level 40 before the job tokens were finished. So did others.
I started in RK because I love dwarfs not because of the the class combinations etc. I started AO toons for a variation in scenery and to learn about other builds. Not because of any job token or bonuses, neither existed when I started in AO or for 2 years after.

Both you and Bargeld make a lot of statements on behalf of the server. It's just your opinions but that does not make it right. I am all for making the server better and promoting a healthy atmosphere but not to the degree of doing it all your way or no way.
I have partied with you Monkey on several occasions in your Lowbie Learners party and found you very controlling. This is not a cheap shot at you just some of us are not into role play and like to find out things ourselves even if it takes longer and can cause party wipes. That is part of the fun. Just saying that your way is not for everyone. And we all help new people from any faction this is not unique to Monkey.

Thanks for sharing, Revel. You have been (and remain) one the most honorable and good natured players on the server. It's always been a pleasure playing with you and I was glad to see you on the epic run Wednesday night. I don't think there's anyone in MASL or TCNC who has issues with your play or demeanor. There have been a few "very bad apples" in AO/RK who most of us are upset with. They are the reason I no longer seek to engage in PvP against that alliance.

To clarify a few things:
In the years prior to the implementation of the new AO jobs, I can recall dozens of raids on RK and absolutely no raids on AO. Of course I'm not saying that AO/RK didn't build anything in AO, just that most of the defending builds were RK and that's where AO/RK typically chose to keep the relics. That changed dramatically after AO got the jobs. A large part of it was probably the desire to explore AO more fully. Some of it may be tactical. Only recently has AO/RK been splitting relics more evenly between RK and AO.

I'll take a leadership role in parties where I think one is beneficial. Other times I'm glad to follow (like on the big epic runs), offering suggestions and seeking clarifications on strategy only when I think it's needed. I try to be democratic and make the party fun for all. With newbies that usually means being a tour guide and giving tactical advice. With veterans I can just suggest destinations and trust people to play their roles. When we come to a boss, I'll almost always advocate trying it if there's any reasonable chance of success because bosses are fun and challenging and the party usually learns something from the experience.

I partied a lot with you and two of your friends when you first came to the server, starting out in that tour guide role and you were very appreciative. You all joined RR far too early, IMO, and I can remember your complaints about being required to leave those parties to defend or not being able to explore your own build ideas but instead having to go off the build sheets you were given. Not so much from you, but from your friends I remember comments essentially labeling your guild leaders with some of the terms Bargeld has chosen.

Of course there are many people who welcome newbies to the server and party with them. I may be unique in the energy and effort I put into that, but I'm certainly not alone. You've taken pride in the recruiting AO/RK has done. From my perspective you've done too well in that regard and it has led to imbalance and the isolation of AO/RK from the rest of us. In my opinion it's best to encourage players to explore all factions first, and not join a guild until their sure which group of players and playing styles they enjoy most.

I stand by my statement that both MA/SL and AO/RK greatly increased their recruitment of newbies after the last relic event. That change was very obvious to me because I come into contact with most new players very quickly.

[nulesi]

I don't understand the #4 point about locking up relics. Relics are the main, or at least one of the main reasons for PvP. Yet locking down the relics will directly take away a reason for PvP. It's a pretty easy decision to stay PvM or to log and defend the relics.

The current AO situation of being the holder of the relics is not a new situation. The faction that holds the relics changes every so often. AO held the relics in the past when I first started then MA/SL did and now it's back to AO/RK. I think it's more about faction population, faction's desire to get organized and to gather/hold the relics then anything else. And AO/RK should be rewarded since they can grab and hold the relics. Some of the conversation seems, to me, that there is just people who just want every thing to be the same for everyone; which is a direct counter to how NS4 is. The factions are designed to be different. And factions/guilds who are organized profit by holding the relics.

Opie...I actually agree with everything you say. I was trying to figure out a way to appease the people in factions that never really get a relic bonus. But, like you said, this is a PvP server and using the relics as a way to promote PvP is good. Plus, people come and go and would have no idea as to when the relics were last captured. It would stink to log on and raid, only to find out the relics are locked.
I certainly see enough raider on to reclaim them, but for some reason they never do. It may be some sort of a combined protest against AO/RK?...I don't know. Again(and I think I speak for the majority of AO/RK in this), I do not raid to "hog" the relics and bonuses. I raid to instigate PvP or to a lessor extend I raid because I am damn bored of killing rats or ogres.
In the end, I think the people behind the toons need to be more cordial with one another. I know some people just do not like one another, but talking smack after killing someone never helps the situation. Insults, whining and exploits do not help as well.
First and foremost, get rid of duel-logging. See how that affects the environment. I bet it will cure a lot of ill-will, combined with less negative shouting of course.

[Opie Crimeria]

Monkey - AO, and PWND, held the relics for quite awhile before there were any talks of AO jobs other than the dreaded 'soon'. And PWND kept the relics in either AO or RK depending on where they were leveling toons from. I will say PWND kept a tighter control of relics then compared to the current situation. And that was with a higher overall server population. (I started NS4 just after the last wipe. That is when my time started.)

Preface: There is a bit of an advantage holding relics instead of raiding; which is just fine by me, just stating. The respawn point is two maps away compared to the raiders who have to clear the relic room and hold with enough strength to be able to rest and/or recouperate to get the relics.

That said; it can be a bit defeating to not be able to have enough raiders most of the time in order to get a good enough raiding force to get the relics. There have been times where I have felt; and been in a small group that felt, it is better to just forget about the relics and go gain xp because there are enough or too many defenders on to mount a successful raid. Then to spend the time waiting to defend whatever was removed. It is hard to justify a raid with 2-3 players when there are 5 + defenders. (The only thing I can think of is to somehow limit the defenders is to have only 1 or 2 more allowed to defend over the raider number. Then have the ability for defenders to tag out, ala WWF, to switch a defender yet keep the overal number the same. HAH try to police that!!).

All my thoughts; not trying to represent anyone else other than me.

[frogofpeace]

Yup and MASL had a monopoly for quite a while before the AORK popoulation went up most recently. AORK had a pretty long monopoly before that. TCNC had em intermittently in between, I reckon. Rinse and repeat.

Server mixes go up and down, for whatever reason.

How about this - keep the relics, ditch the bonus.

[BlkMamba]

How about this- keep the relics, ditch the bonus.

Best damn thing i've heard yet

[Monkey]

It is hard to justify a raid with 2-3 players when there are 5 + defenders. (The only thing I can think of is to somehow limit the defenders is to have only 1 or 2 more allowed to defend over the raider number. Then have the ability for defenders to tag out, ala WWF, to switch a defender yet keep the overal number the same. HAH try to police that!!).

We did that last night with some relic-free PvP. First it was just Elda, Frendel and myself on, so Elda and I logged a ranger and a druid to try and sack Garagoth with Frendel defending. It was good fighting in places you don't usually get to battle, like Garagoth HQ and the tower of Sorcery. Later JP came on and they took turns being the defender. Another TCNC player joined and it became 3 vs. 2, then 3 vs. 3 for just a fun free-for-all out on Garagoth Road.

All good fun with no insults or dirty tactics... after an hour or so we went off and leveled together in a combined MASL/TCNC 36-39 party. That's the way the server could and should be.

[mining]

How about this- keep the relics, ditch the bonus.

Best damn thing i've heard yet

Honestly I agree with this. There's no real reason to give the most dominant group more dominance, and it would certainly give you the freedom to pvp, take relics, then go level - and if they want to nab relics, more fun for you in attacking them tomorrow!

[Korr]

Honestly I agree with this. There's no real reason to give the most dominant group more dominance, and it would certainly give you the freedom to pvp, take relics, then go level - and if they want to nab relics, more fun for you in attacking them tomorrow!

Whatever happened to "To the victor goes the spoils" though? If its just that easy to "go level" anyway, theres no need for them to go get relics in the first place?

[mining]

Honestly I agree with this. There's no real reason to give the most dominant group more dominance, and it would certainly give you the freedom to pvp, take relics, then go level - and if they want to nab relics, more fun for you in attacking them tomorrow!

Whatever happened to "To the victor goes the spoils" though? If its just that easy to "go level" anyway, theres no need for them to go get relics in the first place?

Because it feedback loops. The faction in control has 30% more toons, and thus has a better chance of remaining in control.