NS4 going PvM only?

[mining]

I don't understand the #4 point about locking up relics...

The way it has been the last few months, you could potentially defeat AO and capture the relics, but you couldn't hold them long. Many more AO toons would soon be logged and the relics would be recaptured. Or if defenders logged off someone from AO would quickly come collect them all and take them back to Sleeth. Locking up relics for some amount of time would make it possible for other factions to enjoy relic bonuses once in awhile and give them incentive to organize raiding parties.

The current AO situation of being the holder of the relics is not a new situation. The faction that holds the relics changes every so often.

There's a pretty big difference between the current situation and past periods of imbalance. Prior to the last relic events none of the guilds placed much emphasis on recruiting new players. New players were not normally invited into guilds right away because newbies can be a pain to support and nurture. With many more active veterans online they weren't short on fiends to play with.

Then (as I still do now) I would make the effort of welcoming new players to the server and I'd try to level with them whenever possible. I encouraged them to make lots of toons like I do so that they could find parties easier and explore all the factions to see what they liked best and who they liked playing with best. If they seemed like people who also enjoyed helping new players and it looked like they were going to stick around I'd eventually invite them to join TSS because we tended to see ourselves as "the most helpful guild." If they were more focused on just having fun and liked the Circle best I'd encourage them to join Fury.

A major change in recruiting attitudes occurred after the last relic events. TCNC won thanks largely to having overwhelming numbers. A large turnout by new players who I'd encouraged to join us for the event made a big difference, even though they weren't playing well-built or well-geared toons. AORK boycotted the event, supposedly because they were upset with MASL over something but a bigger factor was probably that they'd lost too many members and knew they had no chance of winning during the hours the trials had been scheduled for.

After the event both MASL and AORK started recruiting new members heavily, not giving them time to explore other factions, prove that they were likely to stick around, or show that they really fit in with their factions. This was discouraging to me because I felt it was not in the best interests of the new players to get locked into a faction so early and not good for the server as a whole. The new players rapidly got multiple toons to 40 with the help of power-leveling and buffed parties. AORK was more efficient at locking in new players, manufacturing 40s for them and quickly getting them involved in PvP and that's the biggest thing that has led to their winning the relic wars.

The balance is not going to change because too many veterans in other factions have given up and quit the server and AORK continues to use highly efficient tactics that other factions don't have the will, focus or desire to use. I congratulate AORK on their victory. A lot of time and effort, strategy and skillful play went into achieving it.

Unfortunately, the focus on dominating the relic wars has led us to the bitter, imbalanced state we find ourselves in today. We'd all have a lot more fun if people weren't so focused on factional dominance and instead were more focused on enjoying playing with all the good people and build options available to us here. Encouraging more of a sense of community in NS4 and promoting fun play was my main motivation behind the suggestions I made back in June:

http://www.nsrealm.com/public/ns/viewto ... &t=1003391

As things worsened and it became clear that constructive changes weren't going to happen I got fed up and left to explore other servers. I found servers with clear visions of what they were and more sensible structures and features that fit those visions. However, what eventually sucked me back in to NS4 was the people I missed playing with here.

Anyway... it's a long story. Sorry if it bored or upset anyone. As usual, it will probably provoke a hostile reaction from those who disagree with it. Nevertheless, I felt it was worth sharing my perspective on things.

YOUR AN IDIOT AND I DONT KNOW WHAT YOUR SAYING AND BLAH BLAH BLAH

anyway, on a less pertinent, but probably more serious note: There's nothing wrong with a faction maintaining relics through sheer bloody mindedness - if you're after optimal XP, gathering up all the relics then grinding generally isn't the best way to go about doing it. Equally, though, waiting until numbers are down then raiding for the sake of winning is kind of... eh, not "cheating", but its like 'winning' a game of basketball by playing after the other team goes home. It's probably not fun for either team, and if thats the only PVP you engage in - then you should really look at what you're trying to do. Not from a "omghax" kind of thing, but from a "what am I doing" kind of way.

[frogofpeace]

Mining is wise. Please don't turn ns4 into some socialist utopia where everyone is equal - the only logical conclusion to that is +1 sticks. Without conflict there is no plot, or something.

[Bargeld]

Monkey's history summary is pretty accurate. Although, I'd like to note that factions and guilds all have different approaches.

GoDS had recently gained their first new member in about as long as I can remember. Luckily, they have a small amount of devoted players to just barely keep their guild alive. MA has a hard time getting new players due to the specific build focuses available to them as well as the general 'feel' or 'sense' of the faction from the wiki and ambassadors at character creation. MA has the stigma of being for mages and very few new players are mage oriented, especially with their first character(s), as a result, new players just don't start there very often. Also, MADD had historically grabbed most of the new players that did end up playing in MA.

For the 'evil' minded individuals, SL fits the description of most of the rogue-y, sneaky minded new players. 'Shadow Legion' just sounds cool too. So there is usually a steady trickle of new players starting in SL. From a guild standpoint, DD and IO players are very helpful to new players in SL, but we also are pretty snobby about our guild membership... and I like it that way. Part of it is the RP aspect of the evil hierarchy, where we just don't accept players because they want to join a guild. You need to earn your membership. Personally, I felt that DD was a more elite/elitist guild who only recruited players that had dedicated themselves to the server and SL and who would not embarrass the image of the guild by being a player with mediocre or lesser skills. We've tried to uphold the image of the 'best of the best' players on the server. I don't like to talk about IO much cuz JP will yell at me But they are a bit more free about their membership than DD is. They still require the same server dedication and good personality/ability that DD does.

TC tends to get the most new starting players, mainly due to the player preferences as a newbie. Similar to the 'evil minded' stuff in SL, TC has the neutral and 'woodsy' image for the ranger and archer-types and shifters/druids. The players there are pretty abundant and play regularly and are helpful (ie. Twig previously and now Monkey). I've always seen TSS as the general go-to guild for TC, and they accepted new players after a very short period on the server. With the addition of Fury, they now have a second guild, one that I feel is more family oriented and a bit more selective than TSS. They tend to focus more on PVP in general than most TSS, BUT... TSS has the age old relationship with NC and their guilds, so NC players who wanted to branch into TC usually did so through TSS.

NC is a sleeping beast, based mainly on latent numbers and past playerbase who never fully retire from the server. CLAD is similar to GoDS from the standpoint that there are a few active members keeping the faith alive, but the difference is that CLAD has deep pockets for relic events and other such things. FoN is the go-to guild here, accepting most of the TC players wanting to make toons in NC. TC and NC have a pretty good 2-way relationship. Their players also have enough time and desire to branch out of their factional alliance and make toons out of MA as the SyN cultists. That's worked out pretty well for the PvP oriented ones who were often missing out on battle due to the pacifist nature of the TNC players in general. Damn hippies.

AORK is an entirely diffferent setup altogether. Historically, AO and RK guilds had pretty much abandoned their factions completely, leaving no one there at all to recruit new players or any sort of goal/status to strive towards. All the veteran players used to be in LA until that faction was removed and the players dispersed. They were only left with AORK as an option, and that's how those factions got populated. HNs relocated to AO and tlb went to RK. PWND was formed from the remaining players that went to AO and RR was created because they needed a guild in RK. PWND and RR as guilds represent this one-time exile from LA. They only needed one new guild in each, so they made them. For the longest time, HNs had a pretty sad showing of players, and PWND seemed to be the defacto guild in AO. That changed about a year ago or so, but I don't know the specifics behind the shift.

As to the players and the 'feel' or 'sense' of AORK... I'll just start with RK cuz that's easy. Very rarely do you stumble on a new player that is a die-hard dorf fan. The only reason that any new player would ever join RK is to make a DWD due to the reputation of that class in general. Lack of players and support then kills it and they will end up moving to a different faction or server. AO, on the other hand, has a lot of active players and the relic bonus. There is also a time zone difference for them and so they have historically been comprised of players from their play times.

Overall the biggest issues with AORK are twofold... ever since the LA exile the players have relied upon smoke and mirrors with their player logins. Very few toons or players are recognizable from their logins and this has made it difficult for anyone to keep tabs on any of their playerbase. This is how they wanted it from the start, due to the jackass nature of those original LA exiles. LA players had a bad reputation back then, and they perpetuated it with their desire for confusion in player and toon names. Take RR for example... the original model put in place when they were created is that all toons ans players remain completely anonymous using some iteration of Reaver ._.+=/??\=+._. etc. Personally, I have always attributed dedicated anonymity as a mechanism to skirt exploits and rules and accountability. Multi-logging naturally falls into that model as well. Overall, the historical sense of AORK has been that it was the asshats from LA exiled into AORK and their desire to continue asshatting, with a renewed vengeance. They have pretty much reinforced that with their actions. And this is where the bitterness starts... those same clowns with the highest ban-rate on the server and the worst overall reputations as players ended up with the best OP job tokens, and have completely embraced dual logging and other on-the-line play styles and tactics. I don't think that they have recruited new players as much as their old players have slowly returned. The bitterness of the players and the degradation of PvP has come from a slow snowball or multiplicative effect of all that stuff combining and ending up where we are now. Call it a domino effect, where no single event can be attributed to the current state, but the realization that it currently SUCKS is just obvious.

Unfortunately, there are 1.5 active devs and 2.5 active dms. Dev's are easy to inventory, but DM activity is kinda hard to judge from a player's standpoint. The point is that it requires attention now and it's not really receiving it. Sure everyone shows up and throws out their $.02 in a forum post, but I don't see anyone making any reliable statements about desire or actions. No one has stepped forward and said 'yes, we will change that by doing this ___'. We haven't seen a new post regarding a change to the commandments addressing multi-logging in PvP. What we HAVE seen is both devs & DMs coming forward and saying 'meh, we can't really do anything about it, we can't enforce it, so tough luck'. And to be honest, because I know from past experiences elsewhere... THAT is the slayer of the decade-old MMO. Waiting for the server to shift and correct itself isn't going to happen with the current state. Overall population has gone to low to allow this type of open-ended PvP with multi-logging as well as ignoring the feedback of the players regarding new token additions.

What has happened is that, when the current active admins started in their current roles, they were not in the initial leadership positions, and so the attitude of backseat driving has been prevalent. When issues like the current ones used to come up, there was always someone higher up the hierarchy to make the 'final decision'. Out of respect, this tradition carried on because no one wants the previous higher-ups to come back and disagree with any changes or decisions that have recently been made. This model needs to be broken because the current line-up isn't functioning in the capacity it needs to. Someone needs to make decisions and changes... and I don't mean by adding a new DC scale or new area. Even Lokey stated at one point that it was Tep and Chase's job to beat these meta-game problems out of AORK and the rest of us (where applicable), and they have failed.

As far as locking relics, I don't see any benefit to it. Defending is strategically more desirable than raiding, which is more difficult and costly. Grabbing relics is simply a way of saying 'come at me bro' and just perpetuates PvP.

[mining]

What has happened is that, when the current active admins started in their current roles, they were not in the initial leadership positions, and so the attitude of backseat driving has been prevalent. When issues like the current ones used to come up, there was always someone higher up the hierarchy to make the 'final decision'. Out of respect, this tradition carried on because no one wants the previous higher-ups to come back and disagree with any changes or decisions that have recently been made.

I agree with this - but for different reasons.

A big issue (that Lokey and I are super conscious of) is that there's two of us. That's not just an issue in terms of "oh crap testing" and "oh crap, doing lots of stuff", but mostly an issue in terms of "If Lokey thinks X, and I think X, we're reinforcing our own decisions". There's a lot of devil's advocate that goes on, and thats a big reason why we've been doing more "You be the dev" kind of stuff lately - in a lot of ways, we don't want to get into a +1 nerf bats loop.

So, just a reminder, see that sticky in this forum? We do quite like forum posts giving feedback in general, but a little preemptive feedback/suggestions on that would be great.

Edit: Also, weirdly, I thought FoN was more elitist PvP, while CLAD was more open, but far more neutral - but I honestly never really paid too much attention to that - I just remember that if they're a new player, and twig's lost in, its over. You've lost a recruit.

[Monkey]

Here's some more BLAH BLAH BLAH for mining's enjoyment.

TC tends to get the most new starting players,

Maybe it's just personal bias, but my perception is that TC gets the smallest number of new players. TC gets new players building druids and shifters mainly. Many of those are planning to add monk levels to their dragon builds because monk/shifters get wisdom AC bonuses elsewhere, which makes them very powerful. All the shifter nerfs implemented here quickly discourage a lot of new TC players.

I see more newbies in NC than TC, usually on Monks, Paladins and Clerics, not knowing that CoT and PDK are actually useful classes here. Leveling newbies in NC is isolating and a tough grind though (I always take mine through crevasse to Melencia Forest for 1-5).

Leveling a dexer in SL is painful and slow, IMO and evil nature of the faction and jobs is twisted. I don't see many new players coming out of SL, but there are some who like evil character advantages, like the Blackguard class.

Mages have a romantic appeal to D&D players and I see a lot of newbies leveling mages out of MA. MA jobs are probably the most interesting (once you've figured out how to do the mephit capture efficiently). I've found myself making several new MA builds recently to do things I can't do in TC/NC.

RDD/Palemaster/Bard is the most powerful build on a lot of servers and we see many new players coming in building RDDs because of the big ability bonuses (kind of like getting a free, stackable +8 str book and some +2s as well). RDD is painfully boring to level though and without being able to take two prestige classes it's not quite so OP. I can certainly understand AO wanting to powerlevel their RDDs. I've started a few AO toons, but quickly get bored of playing them.

I first started playing here a few years ago with a group of face-to-face gaming friends. We were looking to play an online form of D&D and chose Ragnar's Kin because it allowed us to form a traditional Fighter-Cleric-Wizard-Rogue party. RK gets a lot of new players because of that flexibility. Being limited to dwarf and gnome usually means that the builds aren't optimal, though. DWD is an awesome tank and good for someone who likes to grind solo but that's not me, so I rarely see a reason to make an RK toon.

We enjoyed our early leveling adventures, role-playing together as a group. The second time we logged on some veteran RRs found us and in an arrogant fashion they explained that we were doing it all wrong and that we needed to go giant mountain, where they buffed our lowbies up and turned us loose on ogres and giants. It was amusing for a little while, especially the attitudes of the RR guys, but definitely not what we were looking for in an RPG. I still get together with these guys online once per week to play Pathfinder using MapTool to handle all the dice rolling and movement, and Google Hanglouts to joke around while we problem solve and play. There's no interest from the other guys in coming back to Neversummer though. The big egos and hyper-competitive attitudes left a bad impression.

The players there are pretty abundant and play regularly and are helpful (ie. Twig previously and now Monkey). I've always seen TSS as the general go-to guild for TC, and they accepted new players after a very short period on the server. With the addition of Fury, they now have a second guild, one that I feel is more family oriented and a bit more selective than TSS.

Players used to be abundant in TC, but now it's mostly just me and the Furies. TC players got busy with other things or burned out on PvP for many of the reasons I've stated in this thread. TSS was the only TC guild until Twig invited some of his friends and their family members to try out the server and form Fury. They've been open to new recruits and I've steered some players their way. I've been very selective, only inviting people into TSS if I think they're committed to helping new players. I pretty much follow what Twig did. He never recruited me, but was always glad to help newbies with questions and he only told me about TSS when I asked him one day.

FoN isn't very active anymore, though a couple of new FoN players are on fairly often. I joined the guild after someone wrongly told me that most TSS players were also in FoN. Later I found out that FoN was originally the NC equivalent of DD, with a Red=Kill on Sight mentality. That's definitely not my style of play, so any new NC tunes I've created recently have been with the FUN tag instead of FoN. CLAD would have been a better choice for me personally, as it has a more friendly demeanor. I consider TC to be my faction though, not TC/NC. The factional alliances don't appeal to me on a role-playing level. They seem to be an artificial creation to promote PvP. I build TC toons for PvP, even though NC toons would be much more effective.

The only reason that any new player would ever join RK is to make a DWD due to the reputation of that class in general.

I can't agree with you there. Until AO got the job bonuses, AORK almost exclusively operated through RK. RK has the flexibility to build in all alignments and the most classes and combinations of classes, which is a big attraction.

LA players had a bad reputation back then, and they perpetuated it with their desire for confusion in player and toon names. Take RR for example... the original model put in place when they were created is that all toons ans players remain completely anonymous using some iteration of Reaver ._.+=/??\=+._. etc. Personally, I have always attributed dedicated anonymity as a mechanism to skirt exploits and rules and accountability.

That's an unfair and overly hostile view, IMO. There's a lot of bad blood between veterans of the different factions that goes both ways. I was chatting with one of the old time AORK players for awhile the other day. There's definitely a feeling of persecution within AORK and much anger at (even hatred of) many of the oldtime NC and SL veterans. It's a case of competitive rivalries being taken past the bonds of basic human decency and people just treating each other badly. I think that anger fuels the desire of some in AORK to remain isolated from the rest of the server and to compete ferociously, using tactics that bend, break or severely test the rules.

It's easier to demonize your rivals than to try and see things through their eyes. Many like the imagery of war between the factions and that motivates them to build the best toons possible for PvP to try and dominate their enemies. I enjoy roleplaying within the factional rivalries myself, but I draw a line between trying to kill another player's toon and feeling animosity toward another player. When people take it all too personally it can get ugly.

Twig named a long series of toons Twig so that the other factions wouldn't know what to log to fight him. I don't think it made much of a difference and few in AORK are really trying to mask their identities that way anymore.

They do seem to have a number of very effective public toons that different guild members will log in defense or for raiding. That's part of their teamwork, efficiency and focus on winning. IMO, that type of strategy violates the spirit of the game, though it doesn't violate any specific rules. Toons are built for a specific mechanical purpose and the personal, roleplaying element is lost.

Unfortunately, there are 1.5 active devs and 2.5 active dms. Dev's are easy to inventory, but DM activity is kinda hard to judge from a player's standpoint. The point is that it requires attention now and it's not really receiving it.

The way I look at it, DMs and Devs deserve to have fun, just like the players. That means the Devs can work on or fix whatever things they want to. It also means that if Chase wants to be the god of mischief that's his prerogative. If they're not enjoying what they're doing, then we won't have any devs or DMs at all.

As far as locking relics, I don't see any benefit to it. Defending is strategically more desirable than raiding, which is more difficult and costly. Grabbing relics is simply a way of saying 'come at me bro' and just perpetuates PvP.

To me, defending is boring, but raiding is a lot of fun. Defenders usually spend a lot of time waiting around, wondering if an attack is going to come at all. Meanwhile raiders are active in planning and preparing their attacks. Defenders just have the task of trying to kill off the invaders. If they die, they respawn and are right back in the battle. Raiders have to keep their party alive, kill off NPCs, strategically kill or cripple defenders, manage buffs around tapping the relic cradle, and get away with as many relics as possible.

I personally don't enjoy solo raiding or defending. To me this is a team game and working together effectively adds greatly to the challenge and fun.

[disastro]

as an MA/SL old timer coming back 'round here like Halley's Comet, I just want to say that all this wrangling and bad blood warms my heart. I remember when [IO] would torment AO and that one guy in RK. The Spider Queen approves.

some faction will always dominate for a while. tokens and job bonuses and builds are a factor (remember LA?), but you basically can't beat raw number of players working together. Once a faction dominates, that logically draws in all the new players and fairweather fans because that's where the XP is, leading to even more players, etc.

taking the long view one thing to try is to make it harder to keep all the relics in one house, perhaps by providing some sliding pvp-useful buff to players who dont have a relic, or some increasing pvp impediment that scales with how many relics you have in the house. Relics being powerful, yet unstable things. Basically make relic hoarding a two edged thing: xp bonus for your crew but the more you have, the harder it is to keep them all. promote even more bloodshed

ns4 rocks. still the some of the best pvp ive had in any game. keep it raw.

Nostalgically;
Saurus [IO], Darth Malkron [IO], and many others besides.

[frogofpeace]

WB - stay out of Daeron

[Alkapwn]

Malkron! Just trolling but hell ye

[nwnnsw]

Overall, the historical sense of AORK has been that it was the asshats from LA exiled into AORK and their desire to continue asshatting, with a renewed vengeance. They have pretty much reinforced that with their actions. And this is where the bitterness starts... those same clowns with the highest ban-rate on the server and the worst overall reputations as players ended up with the best OP job tokens, and have completely embraced dual logging and other on-the-line play styles and tactics. I don't think that they have recruited new players as much as their old players have slowly returned.

Actually, most of us who make up the current AORK alliance are relatively new to NS4. Many of us are long time players, developers and DMs from various other servers that have gone stale or are no longer with us such as the LotRs, the PoAs, Heart of Winter, etc.

[Monkey]

Many of us are long time players, developers and DMs from various other servers that have gone stale or are no longer with us...

Coincidence?

[Tru3Fals3]

AORK is an entirely diffferent setup altogether. Historically, AO and RK guilds had pretty much abandoned their factions completely, leaving no one there at all to recruit new players or any sort of goal/status to strive towards. All the veteran players used to be in LA until that faction was removed and the players dispersed. They were only left with AORK as an option, and that's how those factions got populated. HNs relocated to AO and tlb went to RK. PWND was formed from the remaining players that went to AO and RR was created because they needed a guild in RK. PWND and RR as guilds represent this one-time exile from LA. They only needed one new guild in each, so they made them. For the longest time, HNs had a pretty sad showing of players, and PWND seemed to be the defacto guild in AO. That changed about a year ago or so, but I don't know the specifics behind the shift.

As to the players and the 'feel' or 'sense' of AORK... I'll just start with RK cuz that's easy. Very rarely do you stumble on a new player that is a die-hard dorf fan. The only reason that any new player would ever join RK is to make a DWD due to the reputation of that class in general. Lack of players and support then kills it and they will end up moving to a different faction or server. AO, on the other hand, has a lot of active players and the relic bonus. There is also a time zone difference for them and so they have historically been comprised of players from their play times.

Overall the biggest issues with AORK are twofold... ever since the LA exile the players have relied upon smoke and mirrors with their player logins. Very few toons or players are recognizable from their logins and this has made it difficult for anyone to keep tabs on any of their playerbase. This is how they wanted it from the start, due to the jackass nature of those original LA exiles. LA players had a bad reputation back then, and they perpetuated it with their desire for confusion in player and toon names. Take RR for example... the original model put in place when they were created is that all toons ans players remain completely anonymous using some iteration of Reaver ._.+=/??\=+._. etc. Personally, I have always attributed dedicated anonymity as a mechanism to skirt exploits and rules and accountability. Multi-logging naturally falls into that model as well. Overall, the historical sense of AORK has been that it was the asshats from LA exiled into AORK and their desire to continue asshatting, with a renewed vengeance. They have pretty much reinforced that with their actions. And this is where the bitterness starts... those same clowns with the highest ban-rate on the server and the worst overall reputations as players ended up with the best OP job tokens, and have completely embraced dual logging and other on-the-line play styles and tactics. I don't think that they have recruited new players as much as their old players have slowly returned. The bitterness of the players and the degradation of PvP has come from a slow snowball or multiplicative effect of all that stuff combining and ending up where we are now. Call it a domino effect, where no single event can be attributed to the current state, but the realization that it currently SUCKS is just obvious.

all i can say is wow, you just have absolutely no idea at all, i cant believe you actually wrote this god awfull load of crap and actually believe it, wtf are you getting this garbage from??????

lets dispell some moronic myths here and give you REAL the history of RR.

RR was started after the wipe by 3 players who had only been playing ns4 for bout 2months before the wipe (myself, skp and q-ran), we didnt "come from" la, we came from nowhere, we had started an unofficial guild called [BC] (as in browncoats from firefly meaning independents), i was also a member of [IO] for a short time, when the wipe happened we jumped on the opportunity to start a new guild, the Reavers concept (which by the way you yourself said you really liked when we started, lol hypocrite) was actually what we were going to name the variety of diff shifters we were gonna build (like a group of reavers, again from firefly lol). Soooo, when the wipe happened we decided to go for the spot in rk (rk purely based on q-rans desire to make a sorc/pally/sd), we then decided to use the reavers concept for the whole guild (basically so you would not be able to tell which build was coming at you) and named ourselves Ragnars Reavers.

RR is actually made up ENTIRELY of players who have joined since the wipe with the exception of myself, so basically, your entire post about my guild is pure horse****.

funny thing is, i wasnt a huge fan of the reaver idea because i like giving my toons stupid names lol

if your gonna write something like that, check your facts dont just make **** up to suite your own purpose.

basically your complaining about things from years ago or things that didnt happen.

im so tired of your crying and i really dont care that your going bargeld, get over yourself.

*as a side note, i havent built a toon without Tru3Fals3 in the login for over 3 years, so quit crying, you know whos killing you.

now i feel dirty for both reading and posting in this thread so tyvm.

[Bargeld]

That's what happens when you go anonymous like that... no one knows the story. All I (we) have seen is you guys arm-in-arm with AO for the past few years. You and and your family and mamba's pm's and shouts and crying when you die don't help anyone's perceptions of you either. You associated yourselves with the folks that I described from LA and that's what happens. All parents tell their children to watch out who you hang out with, because you get a reputation by association. Well, that's what happened.

I was glad RK got populated back then. It's a shame the other players left you. It's a shame that you and your parents and mamba built your reputations through pm and shout. It's also a shame that you dual log and fell into a crowd in AO that dual logs and that it got to where we are today with all that. But don't blame me for not knowing your history with the way that it has been presented to the rest of the server... Notice that everyone else took it as I said it and didn't correct me because that's the way it appeared. If you wanted the rest of the server to know all this, you should have said it years ago. Your jackass in game PMs and shouts over the years made it real easy to not like you, the same with mamba and the same with your parents. You want people to feel sympathy for your guild, or to like and support it? You didn't do much to help foster that. What you did do is alienate yourselves from the rest of the server and continue to perpetuate the dual logging issue throughout it all.

Doesn't really matter about your history anyway. Here we are today and dual logging and AO tokens and other, deeper issues are at hand. You want to contribute anything to that in order to help the server out?

It may not matter anyway because the loss of the gamespy in-game directory server/hub is a big deal and makes the past server woes pale in comparison to what it implies for NWN as a whole.

[Monkey]

Here we are today and dual logging and AO tokens and other, deeper issues are at hand. You want to contribute anything to that in order to help the server out?

No. Of course they don't. They'll just continue stroking their own delicate egos until the server's dead. Then they'll move on to another server or another game. They really will be glad to see you/us go.

[Rufio]

*as a side note, i havent built a toon without Tru3Fals3 in the login for over 3 years, so quit crying, you know whos killing you.

This is part of the problem. No, we don't really know who we are fighting most of the time against AO. That means everyone just gets blindly accused of dual logging, and when one player acts like a dick, everyone else becomes a dick by association since we don't know who said what.

[Tru3Fals3]

That's what happens when you go anonymous like that... no one knows the story. All I (we) have seen is you guys arm-in-arm with AO for the past few years. You and and your family and mamba's pm's and shouts and crying when you die don't help anyone's perceptions of you either. You associated yourselves with the folks that I described from LA and that's what happens. All parents tell their children to watch out who you hang out with, because you get a reputation by association. Well, that's what happened.

I was glad RK got populated back then. It's a shame the other players left you. It's a shame that you and your parents and mamba built your reputations through pm and shout. It's also a shame that you dual log and fell into a crowd in AO that dual logs and that it got to where we are today with all that. But don't blame me for not knowing your history with the way that it has been presented to the rest of the server... Notice that everyone else took it as I said it and didn't correct me because that's the way it appeared. If you wanted the rest of the server to know all this, you should have said it years ago. Your jackass in game PMs and shouts over the years made it real easy to not like you, the same with mamba and the same with your parents. You want people to feel sympathy for your guild, or to like and support it? You didn't do much to help foster that. What you did do is alienate yourselves from the rest of the server and continue to perpetuate the dual logging issue throughout it all.

Doesn't really matter about your history anyway. Here we are today and dual logging and AO tokens and other, deeper issues are at hand. You want to contribute anything to that in order to help the server out?

It may not matter anyway because the loss of the gamespy in-game directory server/hub is a big deal and makes the past server woes pale in comparison to what it implies for NWN as a whole.

you always forget to mention the dual loggers and exploiters in your own guild bargeld. i dont care what anyone thinks of me or my guild, i only care that you completely made up a bunch of total absolute bullshit purely to make your excuses for crying more convincing, if you dont know [censored], dont say [censored] genius. maybe even try supporting your arguments with actual facts.

lets face it, the only thing you really want is to do kill a bunch of noobs and pretend your awesome. the fact that you get killed is your own fault, i mean, for christs sake, 80% of your toons are implodable, thats first day stuff lol, its no one elses fault you NEVER learn from your own mistakes. nah its the job token that makes all the difference...

im curious as to when you ever contributed to anything here except to cry on the forums when you get owned or dont get your way.... ive actually helped with testing and reporting exploits/bugs.

i just play here, i dont get high and mighty and pretend im something im not. if you dont like me, your not supposed to