NS4 going PvM only?

[Lokey]

Fine, mental note, make sure the TC damage token can't be stacked.

[mining]

SL and TC tokens both stack with themselves, btw.

[Monkey]

SL and TC tokens both stack with themselves, btw.

But to confirm... double tapping the Forest Eye token is considered an exploit and we're not supposed to do it. I believe most veteran TC players know this and I inform newbies of this when I find out they're doing it, much to their dismay.

Note.. back when I was new, before another TC veteran told me it wasn't allowed, I discovered that Forest Eye damage only stacks if different elements are randomly selected. If a double tapper is unlucky gets the same element twice it doesn't stack.

[mining]

SL and TC tokens both stack with themselves, btw.

But to confirm... double tapping the Forest Eye token is considered an exploit and we're not supposed to do it. I believe most veteran TC players know this and I inform newbies of this when I find out they're doing it, much to their dismay.

Note.. back when I was new, before another TC veteran told me it wasn't allowed, I discovered that Forest Eye damage only stacks if different elements are randomly selected. If a double tapper is unlucky gets the same element twice it doesn't stack.

It stacks regardless, your sheet just lies.

[$chase$]

running off topic

[Monkey]

running off topic

Oops, sorry. Back to the topic of whining about job bonuses.

I chatted with Eldaquen tonight about the history of the Forest Eye. In typical Eldaquen fasion she spoke of how Silvanus requested that TSS not double tap the Forest Eye when we were first given it and that we have honored that request, though there is no formal rule against it.

Elda also mentioned that she doesn't use the forest eye in PvP because it is short lived and activating it takes more time than it is worth. The eye sometimes bugs and replaces a weapon's elemental damage with its own, and when it wears off on a shifter it often bugs AC, especially if its a shifter with monk levels.

(Other players and I have noticed that our AC often seems to get bugged in battle and we suddenly start getting hit very easily. Now I know that this is most likely due to the forest eye wearing off while I'm still shifted.)

And for those who don't know: Job bonuses for abilities and skills don't carry over into shifted forms.

In my view Shifters are still the most fun to play, with endless combinations to build and tactics to use in PvM. I wouldn't trade them for any other prestige class. They have been made pretty much irrelevant for PvP however, which is why you rarely see them in relic battles anymore.

[Amoenotep]

i thought this was another thread crying about multi boxers?

[Monkey]

Fine, mental note, make sure the TC damage token can't be stacked.

Making the duration much longer and making it 1x/day would both prevent double tapping and the shifter bugging problem.

[nulesi]

My toon names have the last name Storm. I have not read much on these threads. This one was brought to my attn and I was disappointed with the complaining. I have not been with the server too long and tried all the factions in the beginning before deciding to stick with AO. Not because I can make the best toons in AO(I still think the best builds are in NC with the COT mixed build. That divine wrath is the best buff on the server. Not to mention the stunners in NC are impossible to beat, unless you invest EVERYTHING in a high fortitude build. But that build will be severely lacking in other areas). It seems to me that some think multi-logging is happening when it is not. Sometimes we just have the numbers...sometimes SL/MA have the numbers. Sometimes Korr separately gets involved....just like sometimes TC/NC helps MA/SL(It seems to me there is a lot of crossover between those 2. Back to duel-logging: In AO, I only know of 2 or 3 that actually do it, but I have only witnessed it on very few occasions as it relates to PvP. I do not(actually I can't) duel-log myself. I think it has a purpose for transfers, since it is hard to get someone to hold a screen, but I would not care if it was taken away. It is hard enough to play 1 toon, let alone 2 or 3. My two-cents would to:
1. Do away with duel-logging.
2. Make people have normal names for their toons. They do not need to have last names, but just get rid of the wacked-out, stupid, childish names. Anyone looking at this server, just needs to look at the list of names and say to themselves 'this site is not for me'.
3. Do not get rid of PvP. I joined the site due to the PvP. People that know me, know I never search it out(unless attacked first), but fighting other people in real-time across the internet in unique. Also...sometimes you just get bored with routine leveling, which leads to raiding. Not to hog relics, but to draw out some PvP.
4. Somehow make it impossible to take relics (other than your own) if nobody is on to defend or cannot defend.
5. Get rid of the crafting of wands, rods, etc...Nobody fights on the merit of their build anymore. Why invest in ii when we can just load up on wands? Why invest in haste when we can just load up on haste potions? Why invest in a caster class when we can just spam 'slow' wands, 'entangle' wands and 'mord' scrolls?
6. Allow all cleric domains in all factions.
7. Lessen the usefulness of hide and move silent. If it IS about fun....nobody I know has fun fighting sneaks(IE..the reason people hate Kamodo sneaks). I know this hurts SL, but a lot of animosity/complaining stems form sneaks and stunners. It then leads to some bringing in the fighter/disarmers which creates more anger.
8. Speaking if disarmers: Need to make it more difficult I guess. I personally never get disarmed, but you have to invest a lot into discipline. You now have to take ESF(disc) on every build. It is probably frustrating to some caster and ranged build to have to do this.

Just some thoughts off the top of my head form a semi-new, lvl headed player. I am sure I am missing consequences of some of these moves and I know the creators have their reasons for things are the way they are.

[Monkey]

My two-cents would to:
1. Do away with duel-logging.
2. Make people have normal names for their toons. They do not need to have last names, but just get rid of the wacked-out, stupid, childish names. Anyone looking at this server, just needs to look at the list of names and say to themselves 'this site is not for me'.
3. Do not get rid of PvP. I joined the site due to the PvP. People that know me, know I never search it out(unless attacked first), but fighting other people in real-time across the internet in unique. Also...sometimes you just get bored with routine leveling, which leads to raiding. Not to hog relics, but to draw out some PvP.
4. Somehow make it impossible to take relics (other than your own) if nobody is on to defend or cannot defend.
5. Get rid of the crafting of wands, rods, etc...Nobody fights on the merit of their build anymore. Why invest in ii when we can just load up on wands? Why invest in haste when we can just load up on haste potions? Why invest in a caster class when we can just spam 'slow' wands, 'entangle' wands and 'mord' scrolls?
6. Allow all cleric domains in all factions.
7. Lessen the usefulness of hide and move silent. If it IS about fun....nobody I know has fun fighting sneaks(IE..the reason people hate Kamodo sneaks). I know this hurts SL, but a lot of animosity/complaining stems form sneaks and stunners. It then leads to some bringing in the fighter/disarmers which creates more anger.
8. Speaking if disarmers: Need to make it more difficult I guess. I personally never get disarmed, but you have to invest a lot into discipline. You now have to take ESF(disc) on every build. It is probably frustrating to some caster and ranged build to have to do this.

Just some thoughts off the top of my head form a semi-new, lvl headed player. I am sure I am missing consequences of some of these moves and I know the creators have their reasons for things are the way they are.

Good thoughts, Nulesi. Here are my own opinions in response.

1. While I think dual-logging is an exploit and not in the spirit of the game, I also think the server is on very shaky grounds right now. Too many players have gotten frustrated and have left. We can't afford to lose more people and if dual-logging is completely banned that's what will probably happen. A simple rule prohibiting dual-logging in PvP was needed long ago. The time for it may have passed because new, flexible options are now needed to make PvP balanced and fun again.

2. I'm not sure what type of names you mean. DMs already police offensive names. I like the humorous and clever names, though to others they may seem childish and not appropriate for a role-playing game.

3. In my opinion, you guys effectively did get rid of PvP by dominating the relic wars too methodically, for too long. There's a lot of bitterness and frustration over that, some warranted, some not. PvP just isn't fun, challenging and fair these days.

4. I can't imagine a mechanism to prevent unchallenged relic runs that wouldn't be too easy to exploit. Your suggestion is similar in intent to one I made months ago and continue to make: Lock up the relics for a period of time after resets so that winning the relic battle before a reset gives your faction an extended period of stress-free leveling fun without having to worry about defending.

5. I agree with you on that, but most others seem to like being able to make a rogue with UMD act like a mage or a cleric. In TC/NC it's the only way to get access to important mage spells, like Mords. I personally would like to see all consumables banned for PvP to make casters and teamwork more important, but people are addicted to their pots, wands, rods and scrolls.

6. I can't agree with that. Domain restrictions are important for role play and to prevent certain overpowered builds. I'll make a cleric in any other faction if there's something I want to build that can't be made in TC.

7. Again I disagree. Spot vs. Hide and Listen vs. MS are important strategic elements to the game. Every defending, raiding or leveling party is better with a good spotter or listener, just as it's better with a cleric, a bard, some hitters, a tank and some mages. Hide/MS on mobs and players add strategy and skill to the game.

8. IMO, disarming in PvP is dirty play if it can cause a player to lose a weapon. Disarmed items should always go into the victims backpack (unless they're foolish enough not to leave space). If developers would put that in place I'd use disarm as a strategic option. Newbies especially are hurt by disarm as they seldom have replacements for their best weapon. The NS4 community can't afford to upset newbies at this point.


And as for GoTs? Their superiority is a huge falacy... The stats are great when Wrath is up, but they're worthless in a tough, extended battle after getting killed and raised. Far too many NC players have them and raided with them, usually getting themselves killed quickly. Since I typically was on a cleric it put a huge burden on me to try and keep them alive.

If it's a 1 on 1 battle, or your side has overwhelming force in PvP, or in PvM CoTs are awesome.
If it's an even battle or you're facing a stronger opponent, CoTs are more trouble than they're worth, based on my experience.

[Eldaquen]

LOL this thread starts out with the claim that AO is overpowered in part due to their new job token yet after all that was written/said what is decided upon is that TC gets a nerf to TC's. Why was that decided upon based on this thread?

Lokey wrote: Fine, mental note, make sure the TC damage token can't be stacked.

Even though mining wrote: Overall, as far as tokens: RK=AO=NC=MA>>>SL>TC, with SL~= TC.

So to recap the faction with the weakest token in a comparison by a dev is the one getting a nerf.

[Eldaquen]

By the way, double activating the Forest Eye was NOT considered an exploit. Silvanus (when there was a DM playing under that name) asked that the eye not be abused. Which I do believe over the years since it's inception the Eye was not abused.

On average the Eye does 4.5 damage of a random element when single activated. 20% concealment when outdoors only and 4.5 average damage versus AO'S +3 AB and saves, as well as True sight that is usable indoors and outdoors...Nice balance (that was sarcasim). By the way I have noticed that if a weapon already had the element the Eye was going to apply then sometimes no additional elemental damage was applied; so in those cases the average is 0.

PvP builds tend to have over 500 hps, 4.5 elemental average damage is really a concern?

TC - dex +1, wis +1, disc +2, heal +2, lore +2, open lock +2, taunt +2, tumble +2, listen +4, hide +4, move silent +4, spot +4, search +4
1) vine pipes: conceal in outdoors (not meantioned above but is only 20%, not used at medium and higher levels since ii is 50% and mass camoflague is 33%)
2) forest eye: stackable random elemental damage and +1 to dex and wis (stackable)

No one bothers to use vine pipes at lower levels because the Glowing Purple Potion grants 10% concealment plus 5/1 reduction at 1 turn per level, or when the the Bubbling Purple Potion grants 30% concealment at 1 round per level.

Question does the AO token that grants the +3 to AB stack with prayer, aid, bless, and/or Aura? Vine pipes doesn't stack with etheral visage, ghostly visage, ii, or mass camoflauge.

[nulesi]

My two-cents would to:

6. I can't agree with that. Domain restrictions are important for role play and to prevent certain overpowered builds. I'll make a cleric in any other faction if there's something I want to build that can't be made in TC.

8. IMO, disarming in PvP is dirty play if it can cause a player to lose a weapon. Disarmed items should always go into the victims backpack (unless they're foolish enough not to leave space). If developers would put that in place I'd use disarm as a strategic option. Newbies especially are hurt by disarm as they seldom have replacements for their best weapon. The NS4 community can't afford to upset newbies at this point.


And as for GoTs? Their superiority is a huge falacy... The stats are great when Wrath is up, but they're worthless in a tough, extended battle after getting killed and raised. Far too many NC players have them and raided with them, usually getting themselves killed quickly. Since I typically was on a cleric it put a huge burden on me to try and keep them alive.

If it's a 1 on 1 battle, or your side has overwhelming force in PvP, or in PvM CoTs are awesome.
If it's an even battle or you're facing a stronger opponent, CoTs are more trouble than they're worth, based on my experience.

Good feedback

6. I would choose Trickery domain if I could in AO because I think it is the most valuable. 50% conceal on a similar build is huge imo. Another reason I could make a much more powerful toon in NC v AO...considering I can replace CoT with Fighter/BG.

8. No problem with that. It is only an exploit because it is an opportunity to steal a epic weapon or rid one from the opponent out of hate or spite. Until it changes, those weapons need to be returned if dropped.

Regarding CoT: It is probably due to the fact I Like mutt cleric toons, since I have to solo so much. As a mix in class, COT is effectively a BG and Fighter in 1, because you get saves AND additional feats. Plus the divine wrath bonus. So, for my builds, I would always take CoT over the other classes with 1 ab/lvl.

This server seems to be built for PvP, due to all the build restrictions. A pure class will have a hard time soloing PvM, but are great in team PvP. By eliminating or restricting PvP, you also will do away with pure builds meant for parties. I say this because the numbers on the server are down making finding a party tougher.

[Opie Crimeria]

I don't understand the #4 point about locking up relics. Relics are the main, or at least one of the main reasons for PvP. Yet locking down the relics will directly take away a reason for PvP. It's a pretty easy decision to stay PvM or to log and defend the relics.

The current AO situation of being the holder of the relics is not a new situation. The faction that holds the relics changes every so often. AO held the relics in the past when I first started then MA/SL did and now it's back to AO/RK. I think it's more about faction population, faction's desire to get organized and to gather/hold the relics then anything else. And AO/RK should be rewarded since they can grab and hold the relics. Some of the conversation seems, to me, that there is just people who just want every thing to be the same for everyone; which is a direct counter to how NS4 is. The factions are designed to be different. And factions/guilds who are organized profit by holding the relics.

[Monkey]

I don't understand the #4 point about locking up relics...

The way it has been the last few months, you could potentially defeat AO and capture the relics, but you couldn't hold them long. Many more AO toons would soon be logged and the relics would be recaptured. Or if defenders logged off someone from AO would quickly come collect them all and take them back to Sleeth. Locking up relics for some amount of time would make it possible for other factions to enjoy relic bonuses once in awhile and give them incentive to organize raiding parties.

The current AO situation of being the holder of the relics is not a new situation. The faction that holds the relics changes every so often.

There's a pretty big difference between the current situation and past periods of imbalance. Prior to the last relic events none of the guilds placed much emphasis on recruiting new players. New players were not normally invited into guilds right away because newbies can be a pain to support and nurture. With many more active veterans online they weren't short on fiends to play with.

Then (as I still do now) I would make the effort of welcoming new players to the server and I'd try to level with them whenever possible. I encouraged them to make lots of toons like I do so that they could find parties easier and explore all the factions to see what they liked best and who they liked playing with best. If they seemed like people who also enjoyed helping new players and it looked like they were going to stick around I'd eventually invite them to join TSS because we tended to see ourselves as "the most helpful guild." If they were more focused on just having fun and liked the Circle best I'd encourage them to join Fury.

A major change in recruiting attitudes occurred after the last relic events. TCNC won thanks largely to having overwhelming numbers. A large turnout by new players who I'd encouraged to join us for the event made a big difference, even though they weren't playing well-built or well-geared toons. AORK boycotted the event, supposedly because they were upset with MASL over something but a bigger factor was probably that they'd lost too many members and knew they had no chance of winning during the hours the trials had been scheduled for.

After the event both MASL and AORK started recruiting new members heavily, not giving them time to explore other factions, prove that they were likely to stick around, or show that they really fit in with their factions. This was discouraging to me because I felt it was not in the best interests of the new players to get locked into a faction so early and not good for the server as a whole. The new players rapidly got multiple toons to 40 with the help of power-leveling and buffed parties. AORK was more efficient at locking in new players, manufacturing 40s for them and quickly getting them involved in PvP and that's the biggest thing that has led to their winning the relic wars.

The balance is not going to change because too many veterans in other factions have given up and quit the server and AORK continues to use highly efficient tactics that other factions don't have the will, focus or desire to use. I congratulate AORK on their victory. A lot of time and effort, strategy and skillful play went into achieving it.

Unfortunately, the focus on dominating the relic wars has led us to the bitter, imbalanced state we find ourselves in today. We'd all have a lot more fun if people weren't so focused on factional dominance and instead were more focused on enjoying playing with all the good people and build options available to us here. Encouraging more of a sense of community in NS4 and promoting fun play was my main motivation behind the suggestions I made back in June:

http://www.nsrealm.com/public/ns/viewto ... &t=1003391

As things worsened and it became clear that constructive changes weren't going to happen I got fed up and left to explore other servers. I found servers with clear visions of what they were and more sensible structures and features that fit those visions. However, what eventually sucked me back in to NS4 was the people I missed playing with here.

Anyway... it's a long story. Sorry if it bored or upset anyone. As usual, it will probably provoke a hostile reaction from those who disagree with it. Nevertheless, I felt it was worth sharing my perspective on things.