Solars and everything else

[mining]

stuff

How about I eliminate the things that any faction can bring to the table (i.e. hellball, fighter token), as well as the stupid gimmicky 35 will token that if you fail it you'll die to any will DC spell anyway (i.e. hammer or SoV)

Code: Select all

AO/RK : 
- Good tuner
NC/TC :
- Good turner
MS/SL

So yeah, I guess good turner is totally imba between factions. I mean, who would've imagined that good turner is only available in... wait, is this a trick?

Also, the point of PTing is that outsider races are really freaking strong (ok, stop looking at me, air/fire/waterish genasi, stop it!) - the free AC from githz is amazing, githy token is golden especially on barbarian, and tiefling and aasimar offer some great bonuses. Earth gen is good for a lot of stuff too, and azer is generally great.
I was going to write something on pros/cons, but really...

End summation of everything, it almost seems like this:

TC/NC: Big pro is awesome melee. Lots of domain options for cleric. They get paladin which is pretty nifty. Big con is no mages - and that's pretty damn huge.
AO/RK: Are there really many cons? There's a handful of build options that are weaker here than elsewhere, but you can do everything. Breadth here, not depth.
MA/SL: This 'suffers' in that it has mages, it has melee builds, it has SD. It lacks nothing, but gets no godly meleers like CoTs, PDKs, Ranger/HS, PDK, etc.

Overall, AO/RK tends to be the stronkest, with MASL and TCNC floating between amazing and the pits depending on the size of fights. TCNC's meleers can be far superior to any individual toon, while mages tend to rule the roost as you get 2-5 toons, then leaning back towards the control offered by PDK//CoT en masse for 10 man brawls.

Mind you, this is about 1/3 analysis and ~1/3 experience - the other 1/3 is "Gee, MASL tend to do pretty well, as do TCNC, despite the advantages inherent in AORK".
Numbers matter. A lot.

[Bargeld]

Yes, numbers matter. I've said it before, when NC fields a full team to even the numbers, we lose. You are saying it now, that if AORK fields a full team of even numbers, we lose. The only reason MASL does ok is because we have 10+ regular players, where the other factions have 5 or 6.

So factional balance in jobs/classes/races will change based on population trends? AO got dragon RDD and their massive job bonuses in order to lure some folks there. RK got smurf because there were racial deficiencies and no one played there (still no one does cuz dwarf races make for a lot of class choices resulting in a bunch of inferior toons that are built better elsewhere). The RK guys went to AO. And the SL guys are all migrating to MA (which sucks IMO, I chose SL a long time ago and would like to be proud of my faction and want to play it more, and there are a number of guys i know who share this sentiment.)

Lumping MA and SL together isn't fair either, when considering balance. Kinda like lumping NC and TC together. MA is strong... my best SL melee toon is worse than my first MA melee toon. My best SL casters can be made in 3 other factions, MA included. NC toons and options are better than TC toons and options. Although shifter & druid provide a lot of options too, despite the main deficiency of haste/speed, at least it's unique to them and has a variety of build choices. NC gets CoT and PDK in addition to all the other good stuff that AO and RK can build as well. AO gets everything + RDD combos. RK gets everything + DwD combos. When was the last time you saw an assassin raid?

You don't see NC asking for anything except the long running joke of wanting rogues. Nor do you see AO or RK asking for anything nowadays either. AO wanted a bump to RDD and they got dragon form. Jobs were AO's final desire, and boy did they get 'em. We got 1.5x true strike, a big bump to hide (which still leaves sin stealth lacking in comparison to opponent spot scores), and 10% more conceal (essentially what, +2.5% miss chance on a toon with 400 hp?) TC wants some stuff too, and there has been effort in that area, but they still aren't excited.

IMO the discussion is back where it was months, even years ago. This is a complex thing, and similar to nerfing stun fist, in order to balance the factions, it will require some major overhaul and a hefty server wipe, which is too much to handle, based on the overall population.

Here is my current summary of needed changes:
NC should be good only.
Drow should be evil only.
NC and AO sight tokens need to be see inv and UV, no spot. (UV may still make it too strong, but see inv alone is too weak)
A couple shifter/druid forms need tweaking so they don't lose slots, allowing some casting options as well.
Stun fist needs nerf.
Planar turning needs balancing.
Bigs 6 and 9 need to swap damage.
Multi logging in PvP needs to stop.
AO token should share MA token for ab/ac.
I probably forgot some stuff too...

And as a side note, the best/most accessible sneaky robes (mole king rags) give -3 vs that stupid gimmicky RK token (which they can use 2x with no cooldown). With all the focus on fort for saving vs DYING, will is by far the weakest save for most sneakies already.

Just as all my past opinions on balance, I don't expect these things to happen exactly as i suggest, but I do hope it fosters thought and eventually some sort of action. It gets old saying the same stuff and not seeing anything change. The regular attendance of MASL numbers are starting to reflect that.

[hond]

i don't know if you understand well the list i made ...was the auto KD option each factions have...also on your analisis for the 35 DC token...you forget the same combo you are all saying is the most OP: evil turner+ curse...droping 13 the saves that token look like a 48 DC will save...also, SoV is a AoE spell and i can always add my spellcraft on first round and run from it, hammer will daze me, i can use a clarity rod, token err let me thing...i'm floored ...


On your analysis, you miss some PvP perspective...why Sorc are making so big diferences in PvP ?? for DC, for spells, or just cause they can mord?? UMD toons mord too, and it seems you have nerf the mord, quitting the dispell effect of the spell...it's just quit the mord spells list, but not apply any dispell effect , the original spell have...No need high lvl sorc for it..breach don't take any lvls to work...a mord scroll will have same effect as a pure sorc spell....


It seems you don't make enought PvP, to understand the strategic effect of flooring oponent...you can Blahh blahh, of the fantastic combo you can do in PvP, but to be honest, it's way more simple that you imagine... githyanki token , pure fighter token, pure Hell ball, good turner, roar token and some little variation around...


SL/MA have a huge lack of heavy mellee, saves, races options, domains options, class combo options, that any other band have...on top of it, the stronger alliance receive some demential tokens who finish to screw , the balance you seems to preach... even the number you speak about is totaly mad....NC don't need 10 player to explode any raiders in daeron...If you add some details like the bind points dispositions (why the hell beryn is NC/TC and the waste tent is universal???) making a raid vs a reasonable oponent in NC make imposible the task...you can't push them ,as you have to spent 30k gold to travel to higlands, while raiders can bind in western slope, or waste of anghmar and still raiding at no cost...

If you still adding details to details, you just come to the conclusion, that i choose the wrong side...Devs only listen complains about the strongest bands (like this thread), and don't try to change things like: hiden legion tunnel only MA/SL (as a pancart said in tunnel entry), the ridiculous unique class SL have, as their tokens (or the OP's oponents have), or even the classes/races access (why no ranger in SL ?)...Yes the number matter...but there is so many things who matter also , where we are the nubs of the server...

No matter, you will never accept, that you made broken token to the faction who was needing it the less..and you will always find any fantastic combo MA/SL can make...but that same combo will be posible in other band, with better toons than we can make for subraces/class access...that's the truth..and i understand it's hard to hear to the person who is theoricaly here to BALANCE all that...

--Edit by Mining: Paragraphed it out so it was legible

[hond]

AO/RK: Are there really many cons? There's a handful of build options that are weaker here than elsewhere.

Give me 1 example, of a toon AO/RK can build, who is weaker than same in MA /SL....i still halucinating...

[mining]

AO/RK: Are there really many cons? There's a handful of build options that are weaker here than elsewhere.

Give me 1 example, of a toon AO/RK can build, who is weaker than same in MA /SL....i still halucinating...

Well, out of AO you can't do some things like SD, and out of RK you can't make ghostwise SD, or a +2 cha paladin, or... etc.

[VagaStorm]

AO/RK: Are there really many cons? There's a handful of build options that are weaker here than elsewhere.

Give me 1 example, of a toon AO/RK can build, who is weaker than same in MA /SL....i still halucinating...

Any hipser since it's got 10 lover hide than a hipser from anny other faction...

vs ma, almost any class that dibs 10 into the unice prestidge. Pm get 4 more ac than rdd which is evened out by rdd getting 4 more ab, but crit immunity is just so nice that it nullifies any build discussion vs ma.

NC and AO sight tokens need to be see inv and UV, no spot. (UV may still make it too strong, but see inv alone is too weak)

This would be a valid point if you couldn't buy ts helmets in ave.

Stun fist needs nerf.

I'd say.

Multi logging in PvP needs to stop.

Is this even legal as it is?

[mining]

The NC token is stupid OP but we can't fix it, yeah blah blah. The AO token for TS is basically an undispellable helmet.

[Rufio]

Soo... how about those solars?

[Korr]

Balance mean , the result of a fight in pvp, not depend of what faction/alignement/token you use, but the player skills...

So if I bring my SD against any class without spot they should still have a viable chance of winning?

Or if I bring my stunner against any class without a good fort save they should still have a viable chance of winning?

Whats the point of building anything, if everything should be the same?

Dispell is pretty well balanced IMO. You need 25 caster levels to consider being a dispeller. Pure casters can make themselves undispellable (abjuration defense) as well as dispellers can make themselves more potent (abj focuses).

The strip list for breaches+mord are ridiculous. For a lot of spells youre almost better off waiting till the opposing mages mord you before even casting them. The list itself is also WAY out of balance. lesser doing far more (if you chop it up) than any of the others. In fact the level 4 lesser spell breach will remove spells twice its spell level (yes it removes 8th level spell mind blank. The only reason mord is popular is to get rid of uef, and to lower SR for non-pure caster (or near pure). I also dont believe the numbers to the wiki, where greater strips 4 and mords strips 6. My pure casters get morded and Im left with nothing but stat buffs basically. Thats AvA, UeF, FoM, Improved Invis, Regenerate, Energy Buffer, Shield, Shield of Faith, Mind Blank, Protection from Spells. All gone in half a round (yes I do run around with a wizard and a cleric for those who go "no way you have all those").


Any faction is strong in numbers and in their build diversity (not what they CAN build, what they bring to the table). Nightmare (pure(ish) assassin) raided NC a week or two back, he did plenty fine long before any of the SL/MA toons showed up as backup. This includes killing a few toons, paralyzing a few others, and keeping some from resting.

I went to MA a week or so ago with elda (shifter) and a pure fighter... I was on my planar turner (and I think thats it). We fought against 4-5 people. Though they kept bringning planar toons against us so a lot of it ended with dead MA/SL (oh my planar turner is evil BTW). We didnt take any relics, but we were there for the fight not the relics... and we had lots of fun (both sides).

[Amoenotep]

whats with all this logic! it has no place here on these forums!

[Daral0085]

So factional balance in jobs/classes/races will change based on population trends?

That does seem to be how it works around here. To be fair, Assassin has gotten buffed like what, 3 times now? So while I'm sure you will continue asking for more sin buffs, you have to recognize that not everything has been bad for SL. Also you got your acid damage token buffed (now unresistable).

[hond]

hond wrote:
Quote:
AO/RK: Are there really many cons? There's a handful of build options that are weaker here than elsewhere.



Give me 1 example, of a toon AO/RK can build, who is weaker than same in MA /SL....i still halucinating...

Well, out of AO you can't do some things like SD, and out of RK you can't make ghostwise SD, or a +2 cha paladin, or... etc.

Man +2 cha paladin in MA/SL....SD...AO can't make(can't be weaker) and RK don't have access to ghost token..so yes , our SD are better than RK ones, but ranger have some kind of hyps, hide bump , spot access, and all dual vielding feat for free, at same time, that class allow a cross class with cleric in epic level, taking epic schools instead of favorite ennemy feats and grant access to a cleric spotter with disc (2 epic feats for 5 lvls)....also our Melee are weaker than RK, for disc token and then AO for AB/AC / saves tokens...our sorc are weaker than AO one as RDD give +2 Cha, +8 Str,+2 Con , +2 int, Disc and spot. When i scribe this i was waiting like 10 or 20 toons who are "weaker" than other side...not 1...i can scribe you like 20 toons who are better than our, or for class cross access, or for subrace access or simply due to that tard token...Take 2 pure fighter githyanki and 1 run with +3AB/AC/saves compared with other who make 1d8 acid damage extra...
Your afirmation than the builds options are weaker compared with other side is about 1 % of the toons and the rest are equal or superior..at least compared with MA/SL....starting with that idea of the weak is AO/RK i understand why that token.
and finaly..our druids, ranger, harper scout, dragons,and elemental shape toons, are weaker than in other side..pffff

[hond]

That does seem to be how it works around here. To be fair, Assassin has gotten buffed like what, 3 times now? So while I'm sure you will continue asking for more sin buffs, you have to recognize that not everything has been bad for SL. Also you got your acid damage token buffed (now unresistable).

You will need like 10 buffs on assassins to made something decent...as is RDD, CoT, shifter, DwD...don't forget is our unique prestige class...
New acid token...thanks so much to lauch some money to the peasants...we can't never say nothing have been made for SL...thanks for the charity..

To Korr...by a brain man, yours is useless...if you bring a hypser, i will log a spotter...but if your hypser, run with +3AC/AB/saves, i will have 15 % less probability to hit you, and on same time you will have 15% more probabilty to hit me, and 15 % more probability to save my stuns...i will make 5 % more damages (1d8 acid) but have 15 % less probability of hit...or you can make a hypser with no UMD, no caster class (ranger, monk,paly/CoT) but have a nice token who grant True seeing (stack or not with regular one )...that kind of things, that you CAN'T see or don't want to see, broke the pvp balance...Adding True seeing to a toon who don't have normaly access to it, made it superior, and if on same time, you CAN'T dispel it..that's turn absurd.

[Eldaquen]

Regarding Solars and Balors: I believe a reason for Balors being better than solars and slaads was so players were encouraged to make evil aligned toons. That way a paladin (NC or RK) smitter would have targets. I remember a time when no one made evil aligned toons (well very few) resulting in no reason to build a smitter.

Yes Balor is better, but the summoner is vulnerable to smite.

Regarding balance: there is more to balance than comparing 1 build from 1 faction to a build from another. Balance is viewed on a faction vs faction as a whole or allied factions as a whole vs rival allied factions as a whole.

One final thought...shifter is unique to TC, but druid is not (RK and AO can make any non-shifter druid build that TC can.)

Hond from reading all your posts, I get the impression the only end result that will satisfy your perception of balance is if there is only 1 class, 1 race, and 1 alignment for every faction and no job tokens. Even if NS4 was only 1, 1, and 1 there still would be no balance because some people multilog, and there will always be differences in players' hardware and connections.

One more thing since we are on a SL is weaker tangent on this thread, every ... every TC build I have ever brought to raid SL has lost to Alka's assassin in SL'S cradle room. I have not even once gotten a relic out of SL when Alka logs in that assassin. If I adopt your view of how things should be then I don't see how that is balanced. (Dislamer: when I solo raided and alka solo defended.)

One of the lures of Neversummer is the variety of options available to us players. Yes we can make some really powerful builds and then we can make some terribly weak ones to. Neversummer is not the stock car racing version of RPG games, that would be WoW.

[Korr]

To Korr...by a brain man, yours is useless...

We can result to petty insults if you want... but remember

YOU said every build from any faction should be on equal ground to ANY other build from ANY other faction.

So now youre taking that back saying "oh well I will log a spotter"... but still you dont see where the balance is? Its not 1 on 1, because in a world where we could all relog as many times as I want we end up with :

I bring hipser
You get spotter
I get caster
You get caster
I get stunner
You get elemental
I get caster
You get hipser
I get spotter
You get archer
I get caster


It goes on forever... 1 on 1 is not designed around balance. Factions, faction allies, and unique prestiges are. If YOU cant build an assassin worth anything then dont play SL. I had assassins that could pop toons plenty easy in menzo.

You are blaming everyone and everything because YOU cant do something. It is ONLY YOUR fault if you are unable to compete. SL was here before you came around and it did fine back then!