Change to shifters (all shapes not just shifters)

[LinuxPup]

Oh I'm sure he was buffed by others. I don't consider self buff AC to be a useful stat in NS4, unless that too is too high.

[Daral0085]

Elementals land on the bad side of this nerf, actually. Most elemental builds cap at about 60 AB. The absolute most you can get is somewhere around 62, self-buffed. If you combine that with 75 AC (You didn't give much detail, but I'm betting it was either Gith or a cleric div shield build, because a "normal" elemental is probably going to be hitting about 70 AC. Furthermore, you won't be getting 60 AB and 75 AC on the same build. Depending on what class distribution you go, you sacrifice either ~5 AB or ~5 AC), a single fixed damage type and weapon, and while it still is pretty tough to kill, it is seriously lacking in firepower for a melee-only build. Even before the nerf I never felt threatened by any elemental builds I was fighting against. Now they're still tough with crit immune and OK AC.... but they lack DR and therefore str builds still pound them down pretty fast.

And on another note.......... you don't consider self-buffed stats to be important? I'm not sure how to even start with that one. I'll try this: you're being ridiculous. If you can get 75 AC party buffed, then rocketkai's suggested gith monk/druid could hit 79 AC party buffed, because he isn't hitting 20 dodge cap. Therefore you're still going to be 4 points worse. Second, if you're including bard song, then in a real battle you'd also have to include curse song, which means you're still floating around 71 AC in real situations. Pretending you can have bard song while ignoring curse song is absurd.

[LinuxPup]

60AB? They're shifters not fighters, WMs, or AAs... why should they get good AB to begin with? 60 really isn't that bad for what they are. They're AC was too high, and while its still high, its a bit more manageable. Yes, self-buffed AC (and other stats) isn't as important as buffed because typically buffed players are buffed when it matters. Also, most players aren't bards, and even less so with monsters.

[mining]

60AB? They're shifters not fighters, WMs, or AAs... why should they get good AB to begin with? 60 really isn't that bad for what they are. They're AC was too high, and while its still high, its a bit more manageable. Yes, self-buffed AC (and other stats) isn't as important as buffed because typically buffed players are buffed when it matters. Also, most players aren't bards, and even less so with monsters.

What are shifters meant to do then.

[Daral0085]

And for the record, that 62 AB (outdoors, 60 indoors) that you get *is* a WM. druid/fighter/WM. Without WM, you're going to be under 60, self-buffed. Like I said, for a high AC elemental variant, you're probably getting about 56-58 AB.

But anyway, this isn't about shifters, this is about druid elder elemental form. I think some types of shifters are still viable. Certainly not all, and fewer than before, but still some. Like I said, elementals were on the hard end of this nerf because they have 1) no special abilities, 2) little AB for a melee build, 3) lost a big chunk of AC when AC and crit immunity were about all they had left.

As far as I can tell, there is no such thing as a melee elemental anymore. Others should feel free to correct me if they disagree, but I can't think of an elemental build that does better in melee than comparable generic classes like fighter/barb/WM/whatever, and I can certainly think of elemental builds that do worse.

[LinuxPup]

Since when it crit immunity not a special ability? Most folks would die for that...

Also, boo hoo... I only have 70AC and crit immunity... I'm no good anymore. This is the same ole overreaction we get every time something is nerfed (balanced). Players have this black and white mentality and if something is slightly nerfed it goes from awesome to complete crap overnight... Let's talk in a month or two.

[Daral0085]

Do I really need to start copy and pasting my own prior comments? You aren't addressing anything I said.

Anyway, when I said special ability I was referring generally to abilities that could be used in combat, such as drider web bolt, fighter KD, illithid mind blast, stunning fist, barb roar, etc. So unlike many melee builds, it does not have a disabler. The other exception to this rule is WMs and other misc. builds, but they get AB to make up for it. If you want, you can call crit immunity a "special ability", but I addressed it with my prior comments so I have no need to address it again.

a single fixed damage type and weapon, and while it still is pretty tough to kill, it is seriously lacking in firepower for a melee-only build. Even before the nerf I never felt threatened by any elemental builds I was fighting against. Now they're still tough with crit immune and OK AC.... but they lack DR and therefore str builds still pound them down pretty fast.

If you want a relic runner, you can consider going elemental. If you want anything else (i.e. be able to hurt other people), then elemental just won't cut it. Weak AB and fixed damage type for easy resistance.

[neil420]

i had 82 ac but o well

[mining]

i had 82 ac but o well

Self or party?

[neil420]

party. not gith not cleric

[Jacks Revenge]

So, Since the dodge ac his gone from the poly, can our RDD dragons have a higher DEX then 16 now?

[Rufio]

So, Since the dodge ac his gone from the poly, can our RDD dragons have a higher DEX then 16 now?

My most powerful pure melee build is still a RDD dragon, even after all the nerfs, suck it up like the rest of us

(and thank god you all haven't built it yet)

[mining]

Since when it crit immunity not a special ability? Most folks would die for that...

Also, boo hoo... I only have 70AC and crit immunity... I'm no good anymore.

Yes, when you consider what Pale Masters get. 65+ AB, 82+ AC and plenty of HP.

[Eldaquen]

This thread started as public service announcement so new arrivals or those unfamilar to shapes would know there was a change to the AC.

Few things have been said in this thread that I find odd. Dragons and strength based pure fighters are not comparable. The pure fighter should not be the measure that dragon builds are weighed against. The similarity ends at both are melee builds. That is like saying a tensers mage is comparable to a pure fighter, they are not.

Elementals are still viable, just not as a pure druid. The hardest class hit but this was and is the pure druid. I am sure there are some decent three class elemental combinations out there. Aork would have the better 3 class versions than anything that can be made in TC. That is just a function of the depth of available classes in Aork than TC.

As far as dragons go: the formula that the dev's use druid dragon > shifter dragon > RDD dragon is not holding up. The intent might be there but AO still holds title to the strongest dragon build. A self buffed druid dragon in gold form has 60 AC (excluding imp. expertise and outside buffs from a bard). AO RDD is still capable of mid 70's self buffed (I believe around 77 AC is still possible on RDD in red dragon form, self buffed without imp experise and without bard buffs).

[mining]

This thread started as public service announcement so new arrivals or those unfamilar to shapes would know there was a change to the AC.

Few things have been said in this thread that I find odd. Dragons and strength based pure fighters are not comparable. The pure fighter should not be the measure that dragon builds are weighed against. The similarity ends at both are melee builds. That is like saying a tensers mage is comparable to a pure fighter, they are not.

Elementals are still viable, just not as a pure druid. The hardest class hit but this was and is the pure druid. I am sure there are some decent three class elemental combinations out there. Aork would have the better 3 class versions than anything that can be made in TC. That is just a function of the depth of available classes in Aork than TC.

As far as dragons go: the formula that the dev's use druid dragon > shifter dragon > RDD dragon is not holding up. The intent might be there but AO still holds title to the strongest dragon build. A self buffed druid dragon in gold form has 60 AC (excluding imp. expertise and outside buffs from a bard). AO RDD is still capable of mid 70's self buffed (I believe around 77 AC is still possible on RDD in red dragon form, self buffed without imp experise and without bard buffs).

Should be possible to hit 80 AC, but I might be wrong.