Noob needs help with build

[Sohjin]

If I read correctly, you started character in MA? We don't get monks.....

[frogofpeace]

I like your attitude about levelling up a bit to learn the server before starting another - PvM, you likely won't go wrong with any cleric heavy build, and levelling to 30 is a lot of fun, especially when you haven't been here before. It's when you want to get into PvP (very little of that here with lowbies, so you have an instant advantage just from surprise if you start attacking lol) or the higher planes, a strong build becomes more important.

Many of the players here seem to go through a lot of builds, and only a few of the truly obsessive ones insist on taking everything to 40 .

[Varok]

Thanks for the kind words! I have played many many many RPGs in my time, and D&D for the longest. I understand that you can't really make the best choices until you know what's out there. The best you can do is try to get it right the first time and rebuild from there. After all, I'm playing this game for the content - the character is just my personalized fun vessel.

I'll most likely roll a toon with PvP in mind soon. I've read that Pale Masters were one of the top choices here, but I have only read negative comments since their recent nerfs. Could anyone just name a build they like or think is very strong here? No need for details if you don't want, I can self-educate. I just want to see what people are playing on the field these days.

Ooh, well to start with, go human or wild elf for your first build. ECL 0 is the way to go for a 1st build.

A Druid/Shifter based on getting Dragon, Construct, Outsider shapes, will be fairly successful. I'd suggest WF in club, for DemonFlesh Shifter. Max out wisdom, with 14 int and some dex and con. PPreepic, the STR based forms are easiest to level. The wiki is very accurate too. make sure you get mac disc.

Oh, and if you want construct shape etc. you must be pure druid/shifter.

Yeah I read about people who were apparently exploiting monk levels to enhance their forms. It does sound very powerful, and I can understand why it's limited.

Also yes, I went Human for my first character and will most likely do so with my shifter. I agree about the ECL - the first ride through should be in the fast lane. I know the ECL races give some nice little bonuses, but none of it would be worth the extra hours I'd spend leveling for the first time.

I'll read up on what the different WF do, but that one does sound enticing.

[mining]

Thanks for the kind words! I have played many many many RPGs in my time, and D&D for the longest. I understand that you can't really make the best choices until you know what's out there. The best you can do is try to get it right the first time and rebuild from there. After all, I'm playing this game for the content - the character is just my personalized fun vessel.

I'll most likely roll a toon with PvP in mind soon. I've read that Pale Masters were one of the top choices here, but I have only read negative comments since their recent nerfs. Could anyone just name a build they like or think is very strong here? No need for details if you don't want, I can self-educate. I just want to see what people are playing on the field these days.

Ooh, well to start with, go human or wild elf for your first build. ECL 0 is the way to go for a 1st build.

A Druid/Shifter based on getting Dragon, Construct, Outsider shapes, will be fairly successful. I'd suggest WF in club, for DemonFlesh Shifter. Max out wisdom, with 14 int and some dex and con. PPreepic, the STR based forms are easiest to level. The wiki is very accurate too. make sure you get mac disc.

Oh, and if you want construct shape etc. you must be pure druid/shifter.

Yeah I read about people who were apparently exploiting monk levels to enhance their forms. It does sound very powerful, and I can understand why it's limited.

Also yes, I went Human for my first character and will most likely do so with my shifter. I agree about the ECL - the first ride through should be in the fast lane. I know the ECL races give some nice little bonuses, but none of it would be worth the extra Days I'd spend leveling for the first time.

I'll read up on what the different WF do, but that one does sound enticing.

Fixed it for ya :p.

Anyway, monk AC never applies to *any* shifter.

[Shadowalker]

read the wiki for reuiremnts to epic shapes like outsider wis 25, construsts wis 27, dragon wis 30... the construct and outsider are easier to work. Namely because your want to have enough dex for blinding speed feat (dex 25). There are also some nice options in the base shifter forms, which allow you to include a third class, druid/shifter being required to start. But these builds are more involved and require a well planed build layout, or your end up short on something you need. In game you can send a tell to any (TSS) toon for consulting on shifters, if that toon/player cant help you, they will refer you to another who can. Shifters are like icecream, that one class has as many flavors and options, as Coldstone/Baskin Robbins.

[mining]

read the wiki for reuiremnts to epic shapes like outsider wis 25, construsts wis 27, dragon wis 30... the construct and outsider are easier to work. Namely because your want to have enough dex for blinding speed feat (dex 25). There are also some nice options in the base shifter forms, which allow you to include a third class, druid/shifter being required to start. But these builds are more involved and require a well planed build layout, or your end up short on something you need. In game you can send a tell to any (TSS) toon for consulting on shifters, if that toon/player cant help you, they will refer you to another who can. Shifters are like icecream, that one class has as many flavors and options, as Coldstone/Baskin Robbins.

Blinding is nice, but I wouldn't advise getting bogged down in it. Builds are playable without Blinding.

[Varok]

Man, this post is pretty big. I'm serious, skip to the bottom couple of paragraphs if your eyes are weary.

After reading the wiki a bit, I'm understanding better how Shifters are set up here. Construct shape does look appealing.

After looking at dragon shape I have only a couple doubts. They look really good on paper, but for one, if they're the size I think they are, they're huge. That could be a limiting factor in tight corridors and doorways. I know there are workarounds, but you're still not able to use the shape you've specced your character for sometimes. Also of all the great immunities and DR the dragons get, they're still vulnerable to level drain and death spells, which I'm not a fan of. Unless there is some gear I can get that takes care of that for me, I'll just hope the Druid allows me to cast resto scrolls and buff my saves.

Undead look "okay." They're not overly attractive other than the fact they don't have a wis requirement. That would be great if I could throw another class in with it, but that's restricted. Their DR is bad. The vulnerabilities are easily exploited. I see they have good hit point bonuses to make up for the DR a little, and they have the +20 regen and turn resist, and the limited self heals, but I can't be certain all that will make up for the deficiencies just yet. Damage reduction or spell resistance go a lot farther than flat HP gains. I'm not sure how slow the regen is, but I'm pretty certain it comes nowhere near monstrous regen. Given the common amount of clerics in PvP, allowing yourself to be turned, hit by maces, and burned with fire just doesn't seem like a good idea. Plus the investment in so many levels to gain for such a mediocre set of shapes seems to be unworthy. I'll pass on this one.

The golem immunities look very attractive. The fire vulnerability will be harsh on the demonflesh, but MR will definitely make up for that. Constructs seem to get almost the same immunities as undead but deathblock switched for spell immunity, and all but one shape have no weapon vulnerabilities. They're still vulnerable to devastating higher level spells, starting with ones like IGMS. That reflex penalty is massive too. As a trade off for the good defenses they have little else for offense than a big stick to swing at you. I'll probably find that a little boring.

Outsiders look interesting. They get very little as common traits, but they all have that spell resistance. I can only imagine what a fight vs a group of casters would be like as a Rakshasa. Death Slaad Lord looks good too. I just don't like the fact that on top of spell resist being their one gimmick defense, they don't get any HP bonuses and have mediocre to poor stats. I haven't played them with their abilities yet, so I'm not sure how convincing they are. This seems to be for the "utility" based shifter, most effective vs casters. Since I don't plan to level a character just to try out an iffy spec, I'll omit this one for now too.

So I'm left with the possibilities of Construct or Dragon shapes. It appears that the Construct has more well-rounded defenses overall, but the Dragon has vastly greater offensive capability. The stats on those ancients look quite nice. 61 str will hold a lot of inventory junk! I can foresee some death happening because of level drains or death spells. However, Constructs are as vulnerable to death magic in that regard, so they aren't exactly an alternative. Their penalty to reflex saves only gives them another weakness. Don't get me wrong, the level 5 and lower spell immunity is nice, but I'm sure its charm will wear off the higher my level gets.

So the way I understand it, the choice is tit-for-tat. I gain the best shifter defenses with the Construct but little else. With the dragons I get lots of offensive capability and decent defenses. Plus that boost to Ancient will be nice while leveling.

So far I'm thinking Dragon Shape is the way I should go. Any suggestions? Things I've missed? Are multiple shape feats bad?

[Rufio]

There are no items that give immunities on the server, though there are some that give bonuses to saves vs death or negative energy. Really though, I wouldn't worry about it, just be sure that your saves are decent. Take epic fortitude if you are worried about death and level drain spells. Shifter builds generally have good saves since druids and shifters get fortitide as primary saving throws, most shapes get plenty of con and dex, you need a lot of wis to to get some of the epic shapes, and you can get plenty of spellcraft from druid levels.

I build a lot of shifters, and I can tell you that you will get the best results if you take one form that you like and build with the intent of using that form almost exclusively. (taking the proper weapon focuses and such.)

You can also look at building with the non-epic feat shapes, which allow for multiclassing (note that monk wis-to-ac does not work while shifted). They are a little more complicated, but you can get some nice results if done correctly. Maybe start with a dragon or construct build first though, generally those are a bit easier.

Note that on constucts you can take weapon focus feats in the form's weapon and weapon stats merge into your form, where dragons you cannot take weapon focus feats and your weapon does not merge, so offense on constructs can be boosted quite a bit, where dragons are pretty much stuck with what they get naturally (which is pretty good).

[mining]

There are no items that give immunities on the server, though there are some that give bonuses to saves vs death or negative energy. Really though, I wouldn't worry about it, just be sure that your saves are decent. Take epic fortitude if you are worried about death and level drain spells. Shifter builds generally have good saves since druids and shifters get fortitide as primary saving throws, most shapes get plenty of con and dex, you need a lot of wis to to get some of the epic shapes, and you can get plenty of spellcraft from druid levels.

I build a lot of shifters, and I can tell you that you will get the best results if you take one form that you like and build with the intent of using that form almost exclusively. (taking the proper weapon focuses and such.)

But it still works if you get dragon shape and form XYZ and get WFs for form XYZ. Dragon shape is just 1 feat and some ability prereqs.

[Amoenotep]

you can't get epic shifter feats if you multi class any class but druid/shifter

[Varok]

As far as I can tell, Shifters aren't really feat starved, because your forms give you a lot of the feats you need to be effective.

So if I were to go both Cons and Dragon, I'd need Dragon Shape, Construct Shape, WF club, imp critical club. Only two of those are epic feats, so very doable. Other epic feats for the class are meh, so I don't think I'll be missing much for it.

I could see maybe getting imp combat casting and auto quicken. Great Wisdom if I screwed up somewhere. So if I am CL 26 when my shifter gets the first epic feat (Dragon Shape), I'll be CL 29 when I get Auto Quicken, and 32 when I get ICC. This even leaves room for 2 more epic feats if I wish.

However, since it looks like it's wisest to go 5 druid/35 shifter, I'll have plenty of time to pick them up. For leveling purposes, aside from the required feats, I'd probably take Toughness, Lightning Reflexes (then later Epic Reflexes maybe. do they stack here?), Extend Spell, CC, and maybe Dodge and Mobility. The rest are basically up in the air.

So really taking spellcraft with only 5 levels of druid can make a difference? One would think the score would be too low to do much for you. However, it still sounds good if that's not true. Disc and Spellcraft.

Any advice against going with both shapes?

[mining]

As far as I can tell, Shifters aren't really feat starved, because your forms give you a lot of the feats you need to be effective.

So if I were to go both Cons and Dragon, I'd need Dragon Shape, Construct Shape, WF club, imp critical club. Only two of those are epic feats, so very doable. Other epic feats for the class are meh, so I don't think I'll be missing much for it.

I could see maybe getting imp combat casting and auto quicken. Great Wisdom if I screwed up somewhere.

However, since it looks like it's wisest to go 5 druid/35 shifter, I'll have plenty of time to pick them up.

So really taking spellcraft with only 5 levels of druid can make a difference? One would think the score would be too low to do much for you. However, it still sounds good if that's not true. Disc and Spellcraft.

Any advice against going with both shapes?

Can't take 35 of a PrC. Go 12/28, it gets you the most BAB.

Take EWF club too. +2 AB counts. Take armour skin and Epic Prowess. Most of your bonus shifter feats will be great wisdom.

[Varok]

See my above post for new edits.

EDIT: So Armor Skin looks really nice, E-prowess is alright.

Are the epic wisdoms greatly needed, or can they be replaced?

And 12/28? That'll put me at CL 33 before I take my first epic feat rather than 26. Since Shifter and Druid get the same +BAB, how does that really add up unless you're counting druid buffs? If it's the buffs you're after, I can just take the extra druid levels later and continue with the early shapes build.

EDIT 2: Also, should I be that worried about discipline? Dragons can't be disarmed, and the golems get +20 disc. Would I be alright to stick 5 or 10 points in, or do I really have to dump 2 points/lvl and get it to 20 to meet the max? So far as I can tell, that's only going to be used at all when in golem form. Knockdowns etc will already be hard to pull off because of size.

LAST EDIT: After pouring over the feats I mentioned above, it looks like I'll have room for pretty much everything if I go Wild Elf, maybe only Epic Reflexes, Dragon Shape, and Construct Shape at first for epic feats. By dropping Dragon Shape I only gain either Autoquicken or ICC. Either way, I'll be going with Construct first, and if any doubts arise before I take Dragon then I'll have time to fix it.

[Amoenotep]

12 druid lvls makes autoquicken an idiot build. no reason to have it because it won't really matter to you that much. as a shifter you won't be casting you'll be fighting.

[Lokey]

Golems can't be disarmed either (anything polymorph loses an item the server goes boom). You need that to stay on your feet.

Get cross-class skill ranks and your ok, grab epic skill focus at 39 and you're safer. Many directions to take shifter, but not so many to take the wis-req feat shapes, can't lower the wisdom needed on those without a hak (ok, we technically can, but that's probably not going to happen).