Your Armor discussion

[Cijah]

Was looking at a scale to implement suggestions by others such as increasing damage resist on plate and lowering it for robes and conversely with elemental damage.


Here's what I've come up with taking the ideas somewhat presented by Amoenotep:

Code: Select all

                <-Currently><-New Elem Immunity->   <-New Damage Resistance->			
	        AC  EI	  DI	 No 	Lgt	Med	Hvy	None	Lght	Med	Hvy
Level 01	1	 5%	 ---	 5%	 0%	 0%    0%	 ---    ---    ---    5/-
Level 05	2	10%	 5/-	10%	 5%	 0%	 0%	 ---    ---    5/-   10/-    
Level 09	3	15%	 5/-	10%	10%	 5%	 0%	 ---    5/-	10/-	10/-   
Level 13	3	20%	10/-	15%	10%	10%	 5%	 5/-	10/-	10/-	15/-
Level 16	3	25%	10/-	15%	15%	10%	10%	 5/-	10/-	15/-	15/-
Level 20	4	25%	15/-	20%	15%	15%	10%	10/-	15/-	15/-	20/-
Level 25	5	25%	15/-	20%	20%	15%	15%	10/-	15/-	20/-	20/-
Level 30	6	25%	20/-	25%	20%	20%	15%	15/-	20/-	20/-	25/-

Agree with Lokey regarding Dex negatives on shields. If this was implemented how would it affect how feats work - could you not take blinding speed or epic dodge when levelling up if shield was equipped or would they simply not work if the dex wasn't high enough?

I think the issue with light and medium armors is that the 6/1, 5/2 and 3/4 armor splits just are not attractive. Losing 2 ac over plate/padded. Perhaps, and not for the sake of realism but for usefulness, how about removing arcane spell failure on these 3 armor splits?

[Daltian]

I think the issue with light and medium armors is that the 6/1, 5/2 and 3/4 armor splits just are not attractive. Losing 2 ac over plate/padded. Perhaps, and not for the sake of realism but for usefulness, how about removing arcane spell failure on these 3 armor splits?

Medium and light armors are more tied to barbarian, ranger, rogue and druid class. What are they going to do with reduced arcane failure?

Your table is just plain silly. Who in their right mind would use 20/- armor over 25/- and lose 2 AC in the process. You penalize medium and light armor just because of their name. They don't have insane AC to need lower DR. They are not in between robes and heavy armor, they share same limits heavy armor does. Problem is with robes, not medium, light and heavy armors. They are good as they are. Your table should be something like:

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                <-New Damage Resistance->			
	        AC	None	Other
Level 01	1	---	5/-
Level 05	2	---	10/-    
Level 09	3	---	10/-   
Level 13	3	5/-	15/-
Level 16	3	5/-	15/-
Level 20	4	10/-	20/-
Level 25	5	10/-	20/-
Level 30	6	15/-	25/-

[VagaStorm]

I don't consider neither robes, tower or heavy armor to be a "problem". Ppl work with those as they are now, and changing em will affect a lot of toons. The "problem" is light and medium armors that are pretty much unused as it stands now. I think those types need a boost of sorts.

when it comes to realism, I have toons than can maneuver the battle field with 16k lbs thats pretty close to a small car, and I'm not even touching "the make meteors fall from the skies" or turn into a fearsome dragon. This is a fantasy game, lets keep it that way

[Rufio]

I agree that we shouldn't penalize light and medium armors, they hardly get any use as it is.

Oh, and I'm getting a little skeptical about the changes, I think we are getting too ambitious here. Things aren't incredibly broken how they are, how about we just make the simple change of lowering dr a little on robes and see how it goes from there? Maybe give light and medium armors a bit of love to make them just a bit more usable and see how it goes from there.

All you pro-heavy armor people should be happy that there are no speed penalties in nwn for heavy armor

[Celorn]

I know I don't play much anymore, but I have logged over 2000 hours on this server so I have a pretty good 'feel' for it.

My position would sway toward NO major changes, I think there are already some built-in checks & balances in play here, (and keep in mind, this is looking at it things at a BASE level, not considering class-specific damage bonuses):

Heavy armor wearers; are almost always STR based, and if they are swinging a weapon they get bonus damage from STR & in many STR-only weapons, much higher base damage & crits!. Being flanked, heavy wearers only have to worry about losing 1 DEX and some dodge AC.

Robe armor wearers; are almost always really low on STR, so they have to sacrifice a lot to carry a full set of tower shields, which limits their utility (potions, scrolls, etc..), also being DEX or WIS based, they lack the extra damage from STR on any weapon wielded. Arcane-based often are better off using small shields, and monk-based probably don't use shields at all except in circumstances where more DR is useful. Being flanked, robe wearers have to worry about losing a LOT of DEX ac and dodge ac.

Medium/Light armor wearers; are there any j/k? How many 1%? 2%? there are some nice choices of these armors, but in most cases there's something better in plate or robe. Perhaps some specific changes to specific mid-range armors may be a good way to make some more appealing (ie: little more DR, -% to spell fail, spell slots, per-day abilities, etc...) which has already been done to some extent.

High level armors only; also, even if there were to be some wide-range changes, you wouldn't have to change every single armor from lvl1 thru 40, just armor above lvl30, max level is where most of this really matters.

--
If changes were to happen, I'd think a slight bump up of AC to all but robes would be most fair, or add a universal DR to all but heavy armor (damage soak)?

[Aurin the Masterful]

but getting knee-jerk half-hysterical feedback after the fact is so much more fun!

maybe drop DR/DI on robes 5% rather than up it on heavies

also, you may think the spork is a weak weapon, but it has 3 damage types, plus Bonus Feat: Dribble.

I'm sorry to correct you But Spork has only 2 dmg types. You were thinking of the Knspork

[Shadowalker]

reading over the pages, a few thoughts come to mind.

Cloth drop dr by 5/-, small yet still significant change.

Light and Medium armors can find new life if you include unussal perks like:
1) added spell slots for ranger or druid
2) haste, elemntal shield, spell mantal other type spells effect 1/day use
3) skill bonuses like: empathy, intimidate, search, spot, listen
4) feat bonus: rapid shot, quick reload, mobility

They will still not be the 'choicest' AC selections, but the lil perks might just be worth it for the classes that flourish in medium armor.. ie the druid, barbarian, ranger, rogue.

[Nyeleni]

Ranger hardly does need spell slots. And most druids morph, therefore loosing the slots to the swap. Better if you just add regeneration .

[mining]

I'm oh so tempted to make something that can carry a small car at 230' every 6 seconds.

[Amoenotep]

just by reading alot of the feedback i can tell you robes/heavy armor are broken. the fact that there are ONLY 2 choices robes or heavy means that we could pretty much delete light and medium since they don't get used.

the point of the discussion isn't that things are going to change get used to it..its more of a feel how ppl see things and where our numbers actually are. if we use the exact immunities for all the armors then of course we get disparity in those, why use something thats not giving you anything.

as far as realism for shields, please don't use realism for an argument against changing the way shields work in a fight. everyone knows this is a fantasy game, but even in pnp you have to take special interest in who's using what equipment and how in whatever build they have.


and for those that think our dev work should ben spending their time on this and should be doing other things...no one is spending time on this. at this stage its just a discussion...it doesn't even have numbers attached to it yet.

[Daltian]

I thought a bit more about what we all are saying here and I came to conclusion that our logic is flawed. Even if we did lower dr we would stil face same problem. Robe users having too high ac.
I belive that lowering dr would only penalyse those that can be hit, and they arent the problem.

Also, highest ac toons, which seam to be the biggest problem, are usually monks and they don't relly on dr anyway since they can use only robes and cant change shields to match the enemy.

[Daral0085]

As I think some people have mentioned, light and medium armors can actually be used somewhat effectively with shifters/druids/RDDs, because the base armor and dex cap vanish when shifted. So it's not *completely* useless.

[Carnaugh]

Yes it was would be good to adjust things such that the other armors would get used. Anything which allows for more choice and doesn't just make 1 or 2 things better than the others is the smart way to go design-wise.

Interestingly enough Epic Mage Armor giving Shield AC was a move in that direction...and that was reversed :/

[emil392]

Also, highest ac toons, which seam to be the biggest problem, are usually monks and they don't relly on dr anyway since they can use only robes and cant change shields to match the enemy.

You either don't play much, don't know what you're talking about, or are choosing not to speak the truth because of the faction you choose to play.

The "highest ac toons" aren't monks. Ever. The highest AC toons are shifters, and PMs. PMs just recently took a step in the right direction, the change to only +1 AC at levels where they would gain +2 was much needed and well overdue. Shifters though, Shifters are still flawed. Horribly. Your 80+ AC shapes which you don't have to build for at all would be, as I and others already mentioned, only strengthened by these proposed changes, when the reality is that they still need to be nerfed just a little bit more. Not much, just a little more tweaking to bring their armor class more in line with other builds. PMs and Shifters still reign supreme on the AC totem pole. PMs are where they should be right now, unlimited bugged-with-metamagic ice storm spamming 80+ AC Rakshasas and other forms need to be taken down a few notches. Not strengthened.

Daltian, your pure fighter with somehow dreadful AB can now hit a PM, try fighting a Shifter, and then come back and whine about monks. They're not the problem.

That's why I think this whole conversation is ultimately worthless. It's easier to balance the very few remaining OP things than to reinvent the wheel with new armor schemes.

[Cijah]

Medium and light armors are more tied to barbarian, ranger, rogue and druid class. What are they going to do with reduced arcane failure?

To encourage the use of these armors by Bards, Sorcerers and Mages and getting away from robes. Most mages i'm aware of normally dont dump points into dex usually happy to leave it at 14 (+2 Modifier) or will dump points into Dex if taking Blinding Speed. If they wear robes they normally lose all their dex based AC even allowing for +12 cap through being flatfooted by a SD or in combat etc. This way wearing these armors they at least have 6, 5 and 3 AC respectively still on tap which may or may not be useful. It also avoids them having to take Still Spell unless of course they want to Auto Still 3. Of course having said this - they would need to be given the feat lol to be able to wear them in the first place!

Your table is just plain silly

Perhaps it is but the crux of the table if you look closely is to provide an instant DR from level 1 of 5/- for plate wearers and an additional +5/- at the top end above what any other armor provides and penalises robe wearers who top out and 15/- for level 30 armor. This allows for 2-handers to not suffer in the lower levels and encourage a move towards strength builds and less dex builds. Conversely, you will notice the Dam Resistance for Dex builds does not kick in until level 13. The reason is a dex build will have higher AC, especially a monk, Gith etc. When and if it gets hit, it should hurt! The plate build would get hit more often (someone mentioned Dex builds have +10 AC presently on Str builds) but be able to absorb more damage.

I agree perhaps the light and medium should be more of a bell curve. I dont see the point in giving the 6/1 5/2 3/4 armors +2 AC somehow to put them on par with the plate and padded. Not everyone on the server metagames. If the armors had characterful additions to the classes Daltian mentioned ie. e.g. barbarians rangers etc. Taking Living Bark as an example, then they would be used even with the -2 AC hit. I know I do when playing rangers in the low-mid levels - it's a nice suit of armor for a ranger.