Question about Que Breaking

[Rainswept]

As has been mentioned before... just so everyone knows, currently there's no good way of intercepting calls to Stealth Mode... so as a developer, script-wise, there's no way for me to know when a player his engaging/disengaging Stealth Mode. It's not that the staff has refused to nerf/fix HiPS, it's that we're incapable of doing so (without a hak). That said, there is some work on an events plugin by another group that would allow us to intercept this stuff over the wire, giving us the ability to tie events to such things without using a hak...

The staff is very, very, very well aware that HiPS is terribly broken (and always has been). We had some other solutions to help balance it, but I think waiting for an events plugin would be the best, cleanest, and coolest way of solving the problem. We could do timeouts after using HiPS, among other cool things.

Thanks for the link, and as I said, it's something that cannot be fixed without haking.

As a side note tho, I just saw this edit:

I wasn't doing it to keep you from attacking, I was doing it to get you flatfooted for sneak attacks.

So, you think it's appropriate behavior to make people flatfooted and get sneak attacks without any justification at all in terms of intended game mechanics or common sense?

I don't mean to single you out, you're certainly far from the only player who does this, but well, you're the only one who owns up to it so I guess the onus of defending these actions falls to you by default for at least being straightforward about it.

FWIW on my sneaker if I find an opponent I can't hide from, I generally just run kill someone else or call a teammate over so I can get sneaks via flanking. (or I just run away lol)

[Shamedmonkey]

The entire goal of building is to exploit the engine to the fullest. We're all aware BioWare's engine blows, and the best builders build to exploit that. Not only by HiPS, but by WoF, before they fixed it, and other things.

[Rainswept]

If you really want to put a damper on the SD builds out there and cannot fix HiPS flaws, I wonder if it's possible to move the HiPS feat from lvl 1 SD to level 21 SD =)

[Amoenotep]

we can do whatever we want with any class we want if we use hak's. ns4 won't be going to hak's.

we are still waiting for some plugins to reach us that will allow us to make use of cetain options to remedy things like this though...cool downs on hide would be a pretty big deal to hips spammers.

[Rufio]

Well, the problem seems to be with listen, and the thing about listen that doesn't happen with spot, is that even if you can hear the hipser and know where they are, you are still flatfooted to their attacks, because you can't actually see what they are doing, you just hear things.

I use this to my advantage when playing a hipser and will hips just to catch the listener flatfooted even though they know where I am the whole time. This come up a few days ago playing taski. I was fighting a listener and I would hips, they would go flatfooted, even though they could still hear me, it would break their attack and I would get some easy hits in. Really, from a PnP standpoint this makes perfect sense. If you can hear someone, but can't see them, yeah, you could still target the square they are in, but you can't actually see what the are doing and prepare for their attacks. In fact, by PnP rules (i know this is NWN and not PnP), attacking a square that you know an opponent is in but can't see gives them 50% concealment, so just feel lucky that wasn't implemented in nwn.

Personally I don't think a keen senses listener should have ques broken, but they still should be flatfooted to attacks from an enemy they can only hear but not see, though listeners need to be aware of this disadvantage unless it is changed somehow.

[Lokey]

The entire goal of building is to exploit the engine to the fullest. We're all aware BioWare's engine blows, and the best builders build to exploit that. Not only by HiPS, but by WoF, before they fixed it, and other things.

It's not that fine a line.

Spamming hips is a PITA for a server, and people that make lots of lag get kicked in the face. DMs don't come down on it harder because it's tough to figure out when it's happening...we're not helpless without the nwnx plugin, but it's the kind of scripting I hate to do, so it will have harsh consequences.

[Rainswept]

I use this to my advantage when playing a hipser and will hips just to catch the listener flatfooted even though they know where I am the whole time. This come up a few days ago playing taski. I was fighting a listener and I would hips, they would go flatfooted, even though they could still hear me, it would break their attack and I would get some easy hits in.

That was me also

And I disagree entirely. Even PnP listen a player wouldn't be flatfooted like that, because the battle had joined. I wouldn't have been flatfooted to you if I had been fighting someone else for instance. Flatfooted means you're not in combat mode and completely unable to actively defend yourself. This isn't the case when you're being attacked by someone you know is there and should be able to attack in return. You Spammed HiPS so much that noone could attack you, even tho your stealth was so low I didn't even need buffs to see you.

As for a timer on hips... Unfortunately I believe that would make melee hipsers almost unplayable. Even if the cooldown is only 1 round, they go from complete safety from people who can't see them to trading blows every round. It'd be even more devastating to them in PvM. Probably not nearly as big a deal for HiPSing archers and casters.

I wonder if it would be possible to make every HiPS do something like take a few points (stacking) off hide/ms, but it would come back if they don't spam it so much. You see the idea, the people who are spamming hips 2-3 times a round suddenly find themselves obvious to everyone, while those who can actually hide aren't nearly as affected.

[Rufio]

I use this to my advantage when playing a hipser and will hips just to catch the listener flatfooted even though they know where I am the whole time. This come up a few days ago playing taski. I was fighting a listener and I would hips, they would go flatfooted, even though they could still hear me, it would break their attack and I would get some easy hits in.

That was me also

And I disagree entirely. Even PnP listen a player wouldn't be flatfooted like that, because the battle had joined. I wouldn't have been flatfooted to you if I had been fighting someone else for instance. Flatfooted means you're not in combat mode and completely unable to actively defend yourself. This isn't the case when you're being attacked by someone you know is there and should be able to attack in return. You Spammed HiPS so much that noone could attack you, even tho your stealth was so low I didn't even need buffs to see you.

As for a timer on hips... Unfortunately I believe that would make melee hipsers almost unplayable. Even if the cooldown is only 1 round, they go from complete safety from people who can't see them to trading blows every round. It'd be even more devastating to them in PvM. Probably not nearly as big a deal for HiPSing archers and casters.

I wonder if it would be possible to make every HiPS do something like take a few points (stacking) off hide/ms, but it would come back if they don't spam it so much. You see the idea, the people who are spamming hips 2-3 times a round suddenly find themselves obvious to everyone, while those who can actually hide aren't nearly as affected.

Well I wouldn't say "spamming" I would disengage and hide 1 time after every full round of attacks. with 5 attacks it would be 2 attacks/2 attacks/1 attack/disengage/hide/2 attacks/ect... The flatfootedness would happen right before the first 2 attacks. I was by no means impossible to attack, i would just break your que once every full round. You still could have gotten a full round of attacks in on me before my next hips. If there was a cooldown timer of 6 seconds like proposed, taski would function exactly the same.

[Alkapwn]

He's totally right you can only hips+action once/rd . you can spam hips all you want besides giving your opponent a headache your not gonna be doing much

[Bargeld]

Yeah you can hit a HIPSer in that scenario. Currently, in order for a hipser to remain 'untouchable' by their target is to get your 1st phase off, then disengage/hide.

Maybe its a matter of a HIPSer have more mastery of hiding than your plain jane hider in any other class. Since SD's are an honst to goodness sneaking class, then they get more then just the engine programming known as HIPS. If you want to kill a HIPSer have the spotter flank him. A hipser vs a spotter that sees them, 1 on 1, will usually lose or draw/flee at best. A hipser vs a spotter and a non spotter teammate is usually a tougher fight for a hipser, resulting in a draw/flee. A hipser vs 2 spotters means run away.

Its a cheese ability. It puts newbies and people who can't build on the same playing field as some of the other higher end toons. IF you don't know what you are doing. In the hands of someone who does know what they are doing, it can be very dangerous. But i think the cheese and frustration factors are why people don't like it.

[Chernobyl_Glow]

Presuming there ever is one, the way I would like to see the cooldown timer implemented, wouldn't be timer forcing you to stay visible once you attacked. i.e would not be a timer between "attack" and "HIPS attempt". It would be a cooldown between "HIPS attempts". So you could be hidden. Reveal yourself and attack for half a round (2 shots) and then Hide again which would be in effect immediately. If you were unsuccessful you'd have to wait 6 seconds (or 3) or something in order to try and hide again. So

It would prevent you from getting a couple of shots then hiding. It would just prevent you from a retry on a fail.

On the Flatfooted Listen thing. If you are using Listen, I think you should NOT be flatfooted as long as you are aware. But you might no be able to target. The 50% concealment wouldn't be a bad thing. Blind Fight would help reduce it. Seem sensible from RP point. Pie in the sky for me is that for NWN Listen would work just as well as Spot maybe implementing concealment unless the listeners roll is better by 10 or something at which point they could target fully.

If your Listen roll is better than their MS roll then it shouldn't result in broken queue or unable to target issues.

- Glow -

[Korr]

For those that think listening should 100% reveal a target. . . test this someday.

Get a friend and give him a whiffle ball bat (unless ur HC get a baseball bat). Blind fold yourself and have him wear some bells and come running at you with this bat. He can swing anywhere he wants at you. After this test tell me again a listener shouldnt be flatfooted against a hidden opponent.

[mining monk]

For those that think listening should 100% reveal a target. . . test this someday.

Get a friend and give him a whiffle ball bat (unless ur HC get a baseball bat). Blind fold yourself and have him wear some bells and come running at you with this bat. He can swing anywhere he wants at you. After this test tell me again a listener shouldnt be flatfooted against a hidden opponent.

Ahh, jesus my nose... Lawyer!!!

[Lokey]

For those that think listening should 100% reveal a target. . . test this someday.

Get a friend and give him a whiffle ball bat (unless ur HC get a baseball bat). Blind fold yourself and have him wear some bells and come running at you with this bat. He can swing anywhere he wants at you. After this test tell me again a listener shouldnt be flatfooted against a hidden opponent.

Real life isn't DnD. The spot dc for a medium object (not a creature) with invisibility on it a mile away is only something like 100, but I'm not up on listen and the SRD is pretty sparse on it.

The listen dc table is pretty silly anyway. 15 dc = people whispering 0 dc = people talking, -10 dc for a battle? Wha?!? (+1 dc per 10 feet.)

[weasel423]

Didn't we prove the other night that HiPS/Spotters are pretty evenly matched when we played Hiders and Seekers? If I recall it was VERY even. Why are we even discussing changing it.