What is cheap?

[Eldaquen]

During a raid today I utilized Creeping Doom to keep defenders at bay (creeping dooms in front of LA's temple in Judiciary Square). Defenders were aware of spells presence and even walked thru it without ill effect early in spells duration (spells weakest time) Later (30 rounds later) spell reached its potential dealing weapon master type damage before expiring. Those failing victem shouted tactic was cheap. I do not understand how using a build's strength is cheap. Nor the biais against druids for that matter.

Before anyone claims illegal - DM was consulted - tactic is legal since binds are no longer safe havens (with Ave and FD the exceptions) and was during a RAID.

Other builds possess strengths that are applauded and leave little chance for opponets survival. Why are druids held to separate standard? For example: fighters spam KD on druids and wizards, wizards hold opponents with bigbies then by spamming IGMS. Yet these are widely used tactics.

Even with all its potential - Creeping doom has inherent limitations that reduce its effectiveness. Not to meantion, ways to reduce and avoid it's ill effects. Damage output takes time to reach an effective damage level (spell does little damage in the beginning). Many people walk right thru creeping doom after its initial casting without any damage.

Many wizards rely heavily on bigbies and IGMS. Are wizards cheap for holding opponents with bigbies then spamming IGMS? Does a wizard have to wait 30 rounds before IGMS reaches a effective damage output range? No...upon casting IGMS a wizard will do an estimated 125 damage. With auto quicken a wizard able to deal estimated 250 damage per turn. Doom takes time to reach this damage level and can be avoided simply by not entering the area. (Those that fell could have merely waited out creeping dooms duration.)

Many fighters utilize KD as a strength and don't hesitate to spam KD. Is this cheap? Once activated does KD have an AoE that can be easily seen and avoided? How many rounds does KD take to reach sufficient DC to overcome a druid's or wizards discipline? None, fighter able to kd druid or wizards upon activation (provide successful hit occurs of course). Is it cheap that fighters spam KD vs druids and wizards? Will FoM or any spell for that matter protect against KD? Creeping Doom's slow affect is negated FoM.

Is it cheap that SD builds utilize hips to defeat and frustrate non-spotter builds? Or is this playing build effectively?

Weapon masters' strength relies on massive damage done upon a critical attack. Does it take 30 rounds before a single successful crit reach its full damage potential? No upon critical hit - damage happens, that round, not later but immediately. Is it cheap to use this build against non-melee builds?

Creeping doom is no more cheap than Bigbies and IGMS, KD, stunning fist, Hips, KD token, blood roar or weapon of choice.

As far as where the Creeping Doom was cast...how many times has a pure fighter camped an entrance or exit to a relic cradle in order to utilize their rumble token to KD a relic carrying raider upon spawning into area. How is casting creeping doom at a transition any different? For that matter wizards have also camped entrances casting bigbies, hell balls and other spells on raiders upon spawning sometimes before raider is aware even in area. Why is this any different?

People's connections speeds are different. Some people use this to their advantage, loading and spawning into an area before opponent does; causing opponent to be flat footed and for a moment vulnerable to attack. Is this cheap?

Just because another fell victem to it does not make it cheap. My druid, Netya'nis, has fallen to bigbies/IGMS, scythes, rapiers etc, are those opponents cheap because she died to them? I have fallen to being flat footed upon spawning into a map slower than opponent - how is this different?

Perhaps rushing into the spell unprepared knowing it was there is what was cheap!

[Amoenotep]

sounds like someone got fed with a big spoonfull of "pwned"

good use of a not very used spell

[ashsagoon]

I don't see a problem with it. Now if you put it directly on the respawn point INSIDE the temple where people respawning would be instantly in it, that I would call cheap and questionable.

[Tsavong]

i have no problem with it, ive suffed from TC useing it with some other spells it can be very effective the only time i thought it was bad use was then it was dumped outside the tent in the angmar wastes so i died respornd ran out and died again lol
but all is fair in love and war i guess

[Valhor]

I don't see a problem with it. Now if you put it directly on the respawn point INSIDE the temple where people respawning would be instantly in it, that I would call cheap and questionable.

cheap and questionable lol, sounds like LA to me

[Lorkar]

What?...No stonehold?

[--Ashe--]

I think the use of the creeping doom/vine mine combination near a transition has been the most insanely intelligent strategy I have ever seen. Had it used on me multiple times and died to it. Considering it hurts ally and enemy equally, its a roulette spin for anyone walking through the thing unprepared, especially late in the spell's duration (ouch).

As long as the spell isn't cast inside the respawn point (continually killing said characters), they have the ability to prep spells to walk thru it quickly on transition, since they know its there, OR they can wait it out, I doubt the druid is going to stand there waiting when they want a relic. Is there more than one bind in LA (I honestly don't know) I'm used to at least two. Perhaps try some countering spells.

[Apokriphos]

It is a very useful tactic for druids in dire straits. It also has some relatively easy counters if you know where to look

I see nothing wrong with the spell or how it was used.

[DM_Kim]

Just to repeat what I said in game last eve.. inside the Bind Points are not safe.. but be careful.. the 3 PK rule is in effect as well as the other rules as outlined The Neversummer Commandments

http://www.nsrealm.com/public/ns/viewto ... =18&t=1828

BTW that was a good fight I watched.. the blood did flow..

[Bargeld]

Can someone please elaborate on how the commandments apply to this scenario?

IV - All Bind points shall now be open PvP. This is to mean that it is permissible to kill a player in their bind point, or be killed by a player in their bind point. PvP rules will be strictly enforced on this issue. The limit rules and harassment rules. Since this rule is going live as of now, be warned that skirting the rules and trying to bend them just a bit will land you harsh penalties on this subject.

I think the applicable part is the 'limit rules and harassment rules', and so we skip to:

IX - Thou shalt not harass another player so that it disurpts that player's enjoyment of the game. In the case of excessive PKing, it becomes harassment when you kill the same character more than three times within a six hour period (real world time). The only exceptions to this excessive PKing prohibition are: the killer stays in the same area with the intention of taking the area over for a period of time, whether or not they announce this publicly; the dead player is the one who picks a subsequent fight; the killer is defending their HOME city (not their ally's) and the dead player is within their city's limits; or if a player wanders into a fight or raid already in progress and is killed in the crossfire accidentally.

Given that the basis of defeating a cradle is 'taking the area over for a period of time.' Wouldn't taking over the judiciary square be the same thing, especially if the raiding party has multiple members? And if this is acceptable (killing anyone who comes to the square) then why not cast it on their temple doors? And if this is acceptable, then casting it INSIDE the temple would have the EXACT same effect, only the targets/victims would be aware beforehand. Regardless of which side you cast it on, it's still going to net a lot of kills.

Once I thought about it, I realized that the problem was in the wording. Given the 3 kills rule above, if a raider were to kill a defender 3 times in different 'areas', the 4th kill would be violating the commandment, as the raider has not met any of the exceptions within the rule. If you just scoff at that notion and just go 'duh, it's relic warfare, that doesn't count,' then you have answered the question that is this topic.

[DM_Kim]

I'll type a little slower for those who didn't get it..

INSIDE THE BIND POINT THE 3 KILL RULE IS IN EFFECT as are the rest of the Commandments. As for other areas during a raid.. it's been discussed and posted about numerous times.. search the forums.

[mgrjebbo]

Once I thought about it, I realized that the problem was in the wording. Given the 3 kills rule above, if a raider were to kill a defender 3 times in different 'areas', the 4th kill would be violating the commandment, as the raider has not met any of the exceptions within the rule. If you just scoff at that notion and just go 'duh, it's relic warfare, that doesn't count,' then you have answered the question that is this topic.

I see your point here and i think it was missed. What Bargeld is pointing out here is that if you raid NS city and kill a defender then die, respawn and return, kill that same defender, die respawn return, upon killing that same defender the 3rd time you are now in violation of the 3 kills rule.

As for casting an area of effect spell on the entrance to a spawn point, well i think that clearly represents an infraction based upon;

IX - Thou shalt not harass another player so that it disurpts that player's enjoyment of the game.

One would think that getting owned by this outside their spawn point again and again would disrupt their enjoyment of the game. One could also argue that not winning a fight over a relic could disrupt someones enjoyment of the game. What if this druid in question had mallace in its heart when casting this spell... does that mean he was intentionaly harrassing another?


Atleast this should be one that needs looking at and an offical ruling made by the staff..

Oh while i am at it, who came up with the idea to make a spawn point a pvp area? Seems alittle off to me that i can murder a lvl 2 toon in his spawn point right after he joined the server 3 times and i cant kill a lvl 16 in FD is alittle goofy.

[number one bastard]

During a raid today I utilized Creeping Doom to keep defenders at bay (creeping dooms in front of LA's temple in Judiciary Square). Defenders were aware of spells presence and even walked thru it without ill effect early in spells duration (spells weakest time) Later (30 rounds later) spell reached its potential dealing weapon master type damage before expiring. Those failing victem shouted tactic was cheap. I do not understand how using a build's strength is cheap. Nor the biais against druids for that matter.

Before anyone claims illegal - DM was consulted - tactic is legal since binds are no longer safe havens (with Ave and FD the exceptions) and was during a RAID.

Other builds possess strengths that are applauded and leave little chance for opponets survival. Why are druids held to separate standard? For example: fighters spam KD on druids and wizards, wizards hold opponents with bigbies then by spamming IGMS. Yet these are widely used tactics.

Even with all its potential - Creeping doom has inherent limitations that reduce its effectiveness. Not to meantion, ways to reduce and avoid it's ill effects. Damage output takes time to reach an effective damage level (spell does little damage in the beginning). Many people walk right thru creeping doom after its initial casting without any damage.

Many wizards rely heavily on bigbies and IGMS. Are wizards cheap for holding opponents with bigbies then spamming IGMS? Does a wizard have to wait 30 rounds before IGMS reaches a effective damage output range? No...upon casting IGMS a wizard will do an estimated 125 damage. With auto quicken a wizard able to deal estimated 250 damage per turn. Doom takes time to reach this damage level and can be avoided simply by not entering the area. (Those that fell could have merely waited out creeping dooms duration.)

Many fighters utilize KD as a strength and don't hesitate to spam KD. Is this cheap? Once activated does KD have an AoE that can be easily seen and avoided? How many rounds does KD take to reach sufficient DC to overcome a druid's or wizards discipline? None, fighter able to kd druid or wizards upon activation (provide successful hit occurs of course). Is it cheap that fighters spam KD vs druids and wizards? Will FoM or any spell for that matter protect against KD? Creeping Doom's slow affect is negated FoM.

Is it cheap that SD builds utilize hips to defeat and frustrate non-spotter builds? Or is this playing build effectively?

Weapon masters' strength relies on massive damage done upon a critical attack. Does it take 30 rounds before a single successful crit reach its full damage potential? No upon critical hit - damage happens, that round, not later but immediately. Is it cheap to use this build against non-melee builds?

Creeping doom is no more cheap than Bigbies and IGMS, KD, stunning fist, Hips, KD token, blood roar or weapon of choice.

As far as where the Creeping Doom was cast...how many times has a pure fighter camped an entrance or exit to a relic cradle in order to utilize their rumble token to KD a relic carrying raider upon spawning into area. How is casting creeping doom at a transition any different? For that matter wizards have also camped entrances casting bigbies, hell balls and other spells on raiders upon spawning sometimes before raider is aware even in area. Why is this any different?

People's connections speeds are different. Some people use this to their advantage, loading and spawning into an area before opponent does; causing opponent to be flat footed and for a moment vulnerable to attack. Is this cheap?

Just because another fell victem to it does not make it cheap. My druid, Netya'nis, has fallen to bigbies/IGMS, scythes, rapiers etc, are those opponents cheap because she died to them? I have fallen to being flat footed upon spawning into a map slower than opponent - how is this different?

Perhaps rushing into the spell unprepared knowing it was there is what was cheap!

right on girlfriend !
you get em Elda kins ! f those wussies

[frogofpeace]

go get em, el - glad yer on my side

[ashsagoon]

I'll type a little slower for those who didn't get it..

INSIDE THE BIND POINT THE 3 KILL RULE IS IN EFFECT as are the rest of the Commandments. As for other areas during a raid.. it's been discussed and posted about numerous times.. search the forums.

Please confirm this with the other DMs because what I was told is that inside the bind point is a ONE SHOT deal. Not as many times as you want, not even 3 times.

Here is what I was told when I asked:

spawn camping is not allowed. its a one kill deal. run in and kill...run by and kill...if you run in they can kill you there. but you only get the once. not as much as you want.