Power Leveling, Forced Spawning

[Benjamin Linus]

RP FTW.

Lowbie: Hello Mr High Level lookin' guy with swirly effects on you.

Me: Wassup.

Lowbie: Where can I level?

Me: Go kill a rat or something, leave me alone.

Lowbie: Can I get some cool effects before I go?

Me: No, a mystical force prevents me from buffing you.

[frogofpeace]

It seems like a kind of no harm/no foul thing to me, but if that's the rule, thats the rule. I dual log to power level quite often, guess I won't now. (I can barely handle one toon for except for buffing; never could figure how folks could handle two or more for normal play) Didn't realize it was a problem, as long as the server wasn't full.

Well you evil folks from NC just can't be blamed so you are allowed to do as you wish. You must compensate for your shortcomings somehow.

Why, thank you - you gentle folk from MA are quite understanding!

[P. Fricebottle]

How is buffing a lowbie an exploit?

Nice way of not reading anything I said. Especially the part where I said I've buffed lowbies. The exploit isn't buffing lowbies, its buffing them (especially, I repeat, your own) and following them around so you can hit level 16 in one day. This is Neversummer 4, not 3.5

So much for Druids and stonehold with the call lightning.

Right, because Druids obviously have no purpose other than Stoneholding Giants so lowbies can kill them for good xp. Lord forbid someone make a Leather Crafter, or a Dragon anti-Shadowdancer build.

well the prob there is there are 3 people in my house that play .so your telling me that my roomate cant get on and help me lvl because we live in the same house?

Right. Thats a shame that what you just said conflicted with what you said earlier.

So what are you saying that buff's original intent is not to make your toon more powerful.Or that the original inten of my cleric was not to buff my lowbe's because it was. So i dont get it how it is an exploit.

Try to fixate yourself on one argument, avoid changing what you said as well. Such as first stating that you buffing your lowbies wasn't a problem, then stepping back and trying to say you meant your roommates buffiing your lowbies.

Sorry, but I see more important issues that need to be dealt with currently over power leveling. Come on DM's, get your priorities straight.

I like how you start assuming things right off the bat. So lets get this. You think that the NS4 Devs dropped every single thing they were working on, so they could get together and make a rule that would probably take you or me a few seconds to state. Considering the amount of time it takes to agree on something such as a warning, a verbal one mind you, is obviously too time-consuming and they shouldn't even engage in discussing what the players are doing. Because we all know that the DMs and Devs have absolutely nothing to do with the players.

~Builder of the Walls of Text

[Terl]

Well Frice, I have to agree with you there. This is NOT 3.5, on 3.5 you don't need buffs you can do it all with gear.
I guess it is time to break out the 3rd comp just for the login screen. (sarcasm for those that didn't get it I am lucky to have one comp)

Oh and Fricey me boyo, you wrote this right? "You think that the NS4 Devs dropped every single thing they were working on, so they could get together and make a rule that would probably take you or me a few seconds to state. Considering the amount of time it takes to agree on something such as a warning, a verbal one mind you, is obviously too time-consuming and they shouldn't even engage in discussing what the players are doing."
Well if you re-read the very first post it stated that DM Kim was the ONE taking a dim view on this subject, I didn't read anywhere where it was stated that the rest of the staff took that same view.

[Celorn]

This is getting a bit overboard now... Did I miss the announcement of a new 'head dm'???

By the very words of the posted definition of exploiting, ""power leveling"" is not technically an exploit since it's "using game mechanics" as they happen to WORK - level 1's can stand side by side with lvl40's oh wait a sec -- they CAN. Who are WE, the players to know what different areas the server was "designed for"?? Are there signs posted that I missed?? Should we have 'Whitecloaks' standing around everywhere checking people's ID to see if they're 'old' enough to enter an area???

Well I'm gonna take my lvl5 over to frostdale and PL on some wolves... OH WAIT A MINUTE! I can't go there until lvl16.

Allright, how about this... my lvl 17 is going to jump into the earth plane now... WHAT?! I have to be over lvl21?? How can this be?

Seems like the "game mechanics" already has this under check.... so why do we need policemen?

FACTS:

1. The engine gives LESS xp to a character that should not be killing mobs of a certain CR higher than them (from what I've seen). So, if you are in a big group of lowbies, you can take on things much higher than you could alone and actually get penalized for it. --- But what if you don't have said 'big group of lowbies'?? only you and a friend, now you have a problem... it will take a whole lot longer to reach your next level and you may even get frustrated and give up.

& to P.Fricebottle -- On NS3.5 I can get to lvl40 in ONE DAY, and don't need a single buff! So there goes your comparison out the window. 1-16 is possible on ns4 by anyone, PL or not.

2. There are level restrictions on Dragon use, FD and the planes, thus sectioning off the world to protect against major powerleveling.

3. The current system (up to today) has been working fine since the day the first cleric got to lvl17 back when ns4 opened - why mess with it?

BOTTOM LINE:

It's not fun being low lvl, for most people...especially when you've leveled 14+ toons to 40 since the wipe (like I have). The natural game engine allows a higher lvl to help out a lower level so I don't see how it's an exploit at all. And if this is also about PKing.... well isn't that part of ns4?

I guess I don't understand the motivation for this nonsense. Possibly it is just a 'fact finding mission' to see the reactions.

[neil420]

You dont seem to get it there lowbe my lowbe is all the same.My cleric is there cleric.

[Benjamin Linus]

This hurts the less populated factions more than anyone else. Come to LA, we have people to level with.

To Gary, you can quit with accusations of who's who and on what machine and when. You seem to be implying that neil is lying, but I'm sure theres a couple of the higher ups that know 1st hand he's not. The problem is that he (and rightfully so) is worried about the dms that dont know that selectively enforcing it. Which is where it gets interesting. Read on.

I am starting to take more of a dim view on this. Some players may have noticed that all of a sudden buffs are gone, and are left to fend for themselves.

2 things about this statement. #1 is "I am". OK, so you do. You coulda polled or something, or possibly you're just testing reaction with this like Celorn said before making some wierd ruling.

#2 is "Some players may have noticed that all of a sudden buffs are gone, and are left to fend for themselves." They did notice their buffs dropping over and over again in mid combat, yes. And they wondered how much time whoever was doing it had on their hands, and how much more important and fun stuff that person could be doing. Long time since a big event...

[Gornickthy]

I like how you start assuming things right off the bat. So lets get this. You think that the NS4 Devs dropped every single thing they were working on, so they could get together and make a rule that would probably take you or me a few seconds to state. Considering the amount of time it takes to agree on something such as a warning, a verbal one mind you, is obviously too time-consuming and they shouldn't even engage in discussing what the players are doing. Because we all know that the DMs and Devs have absolutely nothing to do with the players.

Nope I think they got together and threw as many nerfs on MA as they could while trying to figure ways to power up the other factions. But other than that, I did assume that while I was playing the game and it crashed several times due to a shifter, and the entire night had to come to a halt because a party member was dropped to a level that WAS TO LOW TO BE WITH US due to a shifter crash only to have the DM that initiated the power leveling issue to tell him he was out of luck, and the fact that I had to bring in a dual logged toon to accommodate the transition death that occurred from recovering from negative hit points on many many many occasions in the course of the evening... only THEN did I realize there were larger issues at hand than people power leveling.

So what is it you pretend to accuse me of assuming here? If you are accusing me of being a player with many years of experience and voicing my opinion through my own observations over time then you are right. Other than that maybe you should step down from your all mighty soap box.

[DM_Kim]

So i guess some of you need to understand what part of this is an exploit and what is not. It's rather simple.

Any level 40 caster can buff a level 1 PC to the nines. That is not an exploit and tat is what buffing is about. The exploit part comes into play is where that level 1 character goes for xp. If it's going to plow through rats and stuff designed for a level 1 then more power to you.

But when you see a level 9 killing TreeSmashers and Blood Drinkers on the Mountain Top or a level 6 smoking through Gnolls or killing Hill Giants and Dire Bears that's where the exploit is. Those areas where never design for that low a level character. PvP server or not.

No where have I said you can not buff a lowbie PC, but use common sense. Don't take the lowbie into an area where it has no chance of surviving even in a one on one battle with the mob there let alone a swarm.

It's as simple as that. Just keep it within reason. That's exactly why ForstDale became level restricted. The abuse of the Arctic Wolves that were used by level 10 + PC's to power level. That's why armor and all gear is level restricted. Each zone had an intent for what level and class could use it. Try to keep relatively close to it. That's why as a player you can see the CR of what you are fighting.

As far as I know the dev's can not restrict each transition to various level. As much as it would solve some of the problem, it still wouldn't fix it. A level 6 fighter has a slight problem taking on ogres solo where as a level 6 monk would be respawning often. So how would you ever level restrict a transitions? Try to keep within 2 to 3 CR maybe 4 of the PC and within the class that's leveling. That will also accommodate any ECL factor.

Hey, why don't we start worrying about the shifter crashes and the complete server grief it causes (I know linux has worked on it, and much kudos to him) ? I think that is a greater issue for some reason more so than power leveling toons. When I was partied with a low level group this evening one of my party members lost 4 levels due to some shifter crashing the server and the DM on at the time is worried more about power leveling??? On top of that every time a toon goes into negatives and recovers they experience a transition death after. Can this be fixed??? Sorry, but I see more important issues that need to be dealt with currently over power leveling. Come on DM's, get your priorities straight. This was my first night back to NS4 after more than 2 months and it reminded me why I left to begin with.

Sorry, but power leveling is at the very bottom of the issues I see that need to be dealt with on the server folks.

First of all there is not a dang thing any DM can do about the crashes or any tech stuff. Except do some testing when the Dev's ask us to and report tech issues as they come up that players inform us about. Our priorities as DM's are the rules. Are the player on player politics in all it's forms. Are running various events from time to time. Are explaining to players that we can not give back lost levels or items due to a crash and remind them to log save. Are getting stuck players out of the planar store or out from walls when all else fails until the dev's have time to find the fix for those problems.. DM's very much have their priorities straight and so do the Devs.

I am starting to take more of a dim view on this. Some players may have noticed that all of a sudden buffs are gone, and are left to fend for themselves.

2 things about this statement. #1 is "I am". OK, so you do. You coulda polled or something, or possibly you're just testing reaction with this like Celorn said before making some outlandish ruling.

#2 is "Some players may have noticed that all of a sudden buffs are gone, and are left to fend for themselves." They did notice their buffs dropping in mid combat, yes. And they wondered how much time whoever was doing it had on their hands, and how much more important and fun stuff that person could be doing. Long time since a big event...

The reason for the "I" is because I have raise it as an issue. "I" have chosen to take the flak on this. However, I am not the only DM who has acted. I am the one who has chosen to make it public that I have acted. We'll keep it at that for now.

We don't want a bunch of rules any more than you do and for the same reasons. So I respectfully ask: Please use common sense.

If you have questions and I am sure there are some on this. PM or e_mail myself I'd be happy to answer them.

[Aarkon Draco]

BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAA .... HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA... BAHAHAHA JHAHA HAHAHAHAH HAHA ... ok i think im done now. new "rules" suit me just fine shame for all you hoard guys guess you will have to do it the only slightly longer way.


on a side note ive made mages that can solo tree smashers at lvl 9 tho along with clerics druids and any decent dwarf melee types but i get your meaning Kim.

pss shifters are from what ive seen fixed the natural druid forms and spell forms ( shape shift polymorph )are NOT however these are the only cause of any shifter like crash so olets get off the shifter hate wagon shall we.

[burrahobbit]

Those high lvl clerics are not power lvling my lowbies, they are taking my low lvl chars to adventure school. Teaching them the ins and outs in a safe environment. Much the same way you had life guards at swim lessons, my lowbie chars like life guards at ogre killing lessons.

maybe?????? is this too much of a stretch hehe

[neil420]

So i would like to ask why you where debuffing my lowbe that was lvl 7 that was killing cr 9 .Or why you did the same to my lvl 15 that was on the top of the mountian? Just seem's you are saying one thing but doing something else.

[Blystos Re]

*notices he's already out of popcorn*


I find it mildly amusing (if not a bit irritating) that the majority of people are ok with this, and that I see the same three names popping up...well, 4, but Gornickthy just wants to earn his advertizing $$$ from Nerf. If you can't have fun playing on this server without a 50% relic bonus and having a level 40 follow you and chew your food then simply ignore the rules and keep doing what you want to do.

We'll see how long that lasts.

*Ahem*

For the rest of you (who CAN solo giants at 9) it will probably be business as usual. Game on.

*dashes to the lobby to get more popcorn.....and maybe some jujubees...this could be a long movie*

[Lokey]

It's still only a game, and something that's supposed to be...fun. If you get this fired up about it, it's time to take a breather.

So random thoughts:
- Why did we ever raise the level limit above 20?
- What was I thinking when I passed Stonehold?
- Original team loathed metagaming, but we're not around much anymore. The torch has been passed several times, and be glad it's not DCMage cracking heads
- There's things we're just stuck with. Bio will never release a source, so we can't fix certain things. Some are in the realm of the theoretically possible but would take way too much time and probably introduce worse headaches.
- Whatever it is it can't be as bad as Frenzied Berserker.
- I was sick of the presidential primaries last June, are they over yet?
- We tend to design for the way we play. That means we miss things that are way out of line. (I can think of a few times Zing mentioned something he thought we be a little boost/nice touch type of thing that would have made a HiPSing dragon look weak.)
- If you chain spell shatter does that mean you can blow up the gear of everyone you don't like within that spell's range?
- Chained, Split, Empowered Enervation in a level 8 spell slot is cheesy enough. But I really want to make my DM cry.
- If I have to tweak the stupid XP algorithm again I'm going to reduce it by a factor of some stupidly big number (Creature CR: 400 XP gained: 0.0003)

[LinuxPup]

Lokey = Nerfzilla... he's what happened to clerics back in the day.