Aasimar light broken?

[kain124]

skill bonus's that don't really cap are only affected by skills that can roll over the cap. hide/ms are capped at 127..no matter what you want or do, it won't go over that. i can't even get it over that with a super hacked up leto'd dm avatar. so i'm not entirely sure where your getting 140 hide vs the 127 cap spot..

just theorizing on kains problem... why the debuff for aasamir light doesnt seem to help vs a hider. 1. either the light debuff is busted (an easy answer and no fun ), or 2. its working and yet still not enough.

so the question is: how do skill debuffs work against skill buffs, given the caps? if i get +60 to a skill through buffs (and getting properly capped at +50), what happens if i subsequently get a -10 skill debuff? does it apply after the cap, strictly reducing my skill by 10, or does it apply before, in which case my "extra" +10 helps against the debuff and i lose effectively nothing?

My point earlier was just that, iif it is capped at +50 that other +10 should disappear, it shouldn't be part of the equation. If you lose 39 hide skill points from 127, you should only have 88 hide period end of discussion. If a debuff doesn't work that way then it is effectively broken and needs to be fixed imo. Fortunately for all the hipsers my opinion doesn't count for $h@t.

[Bargeld]

My point earlier was just that, iif it is capped at +50 that other +10 should disappear, it shouldn't be part of the equation. If you lose 39 hide skill points from 127, you should only have 88 hide period end of discussion. If a debuff doesn't work that way then it is effectively broken and needs to be fixed imo. Fortunately for all the hipsers my opinion doesn't count for $h@t.

This is true, but the same should be true for those hiding with more than 127. Remove the 'bugged' cap and your method will get executed. In the meantime, since the hiders are crippled, the spotters are crippled as a byproduct. What others are saying (which I agree with) is that, at least it is fairly applied to both sides of the table. Arguements regarding the overall equality of max hide vs max spot are a different discussion. This is not the place to gain an overall advantage back, just because other dynamics may (in each own's opinion) be skewed.

Also, keep in mind that spotters maintain the same advantage with their spot ability, if applicable.

[LinuxPup]

I should point out that while there does seem to be a 127 cap, I'm not entirely convinced that it considers all things. The size of the creature hiding offers a bonus to hide which may not show up in the character sheet and isn't considered until doing an actual check... this is also why smaller creatures get a ab/ac bonus that doesn't show up in the character sheet but is there, and larger creatures get a penalty to ab/ac that doesn't show up in the character sheet, but can be observed in the combat log. Ranger's favored enemy spot/listen bonus and Ranger/Druid's Trackless Step is also not considered in the character sheet since its conditional, but may still be considered in a spot/listen/hide/move silently calculation even if the skill is maxed at 127. Also, I believe things like time of day and light sources can alter the hide check, but these won't be shown in character sheet.

I'm not positive on any of this, and don't really feel like digging through the Bioware forums to verify for sure (if there's info on that). But its very possible that there are players with 130+ hide skills.

[kain124]

But its very possible that there are players with 130+ hide skills.

This line sums up that aasimar should not be spotters, unless you have access to clairaudience and true seeing. Only an aasimar cleric or perhaps a bard/paladin can get high enough spot to counter the 130+ hipsers running around. So I have two solutions I am building, the aforementioned aasimar cleric, and a drow hipser w/nc job item for true seeing. Look out in 6 months when these guys get 40

[disastro]

But its very possible that there are players with 130+ hide skills.

This line sums up that aasimar should not be spotters, unless you have access to clairaudience and true seeing.

this is true across the board. detect skills are generally useless at the high end unless you have access to true seeing/clair/amplify/bard song/gear (and make sure those buff spells are hard to dispel!).

a spotter can avoid the need for gear/song by going 3 div feats. aasamir light is interesting but easily defeated by staying at range (easier still since the aasamir is forced to go into detect mode).

[Blystos Re]

Unfortunately, the bard/paladin grade of cheddar is unattainable.

...man, that would make for some neat builds, though.

[Celorn]

Unfortunately, the bard/paladin grade of cheddar is unattainable.

...man, that would make for some neat builds, though.

I have one of those.....

... oh wait, it's a bard/blackguard .. she's a spicy mozzarella!

I have noticed spot tends to work a bit more quickly/regularly when having a 'spotter' and a 'listener' both tracking the same SD. But that could be slightly lower listen compared to the spot but still, most people tend to have lower ms.

[Sparky]

While slightly easy to dispel, and somewhat short on duration, eeeeeeeeeeeeeveryone has access to True Seeing.

[MrAsimov]

So I was a bit bored and curious and actually took some time to find this on the Bioware forum. It is the question and answer you all want to know.

Question:
* The maximum skill rank for Hide and Move silently is 127 according to the character sheet. Can DC modifiers such as size and light make that DC for a detector go above 127?

* Similarly, would a person with 127 spot in active detect mode still get a roll of 1d20? (Say to detect a 135 hide DC attacker)
ie is there a glass ceiling for detectors?

Answer:
The only limit for skill ranks + modifiers is probably the limit of the data storage for it... so, MAXINT (2,147,483,647). DC modifiers will always apply, there isn't any ceiling.


The link to the page in the thread this is from is http://nwn.bioware.com/forums/viewtopic ... m=42&sp=45
Quite the interesting thread actually.

[Sparky]

Interesting, would appear I've been wrong. Good find.

[Lorkar1]

ZOMG!!!! Can it be? I am so incredibly shocked...(dripping with sarcasm). Looks like that issue has been laid to rest.

P.S. This was written before sparky made his post, so this is not directed towards him.

[cRaZy8or5e]

Since the discussion has moved from Aasimar light to skill caps, booo to Brendan Holmes (I already knew this but thought that perhaps the NS4 devs had somehow scripted in a skillcap [which is a testament to my lack of knowledge about scripting vs hardcoding]) I'm curious about what exactly is included in the +50 to skills cap I've heard so much about and can find nothing about anywhere.

In relation to True Seeing spell. Sparky my interpretation of your post was that access to True Seeing levels the playing field. It's very possible that I've misinterpreted this here, but if that was what you were trying to say, then I have to disagree. It's just much easier to build a Shadow Dancer with incredible hide abilities due to the plethora of gear; cloaks, shields, armor, boots, and rings which boost hide abilities. In retrospect you have helms, rings, light emitting gear, and a couple different low level bows to counteract. True Seeing, even epic sp foc divination TS +30 does not suddenly level the playing field. Real True Seeing as in Dragon TS, well that suddenly does level the playing field somewhat. I still watched a particular bard/sd take down several dragons without any difficulty. There are answers to this problem but you have to sacrifice so much in order to be able to effectively spot a sneak that suddenly your spot build becomes vulnerable to every other build out there on the server , or are extremely difficult to acquire the necessary books to build them.

Anyway, back to my original question, I've had much discussion with other people about what exactly is included in the +50 to skills cap. Many think that this includes spells, item/gear, and ability modifiers. I'm fairly certain that spells were included in this. But then the rest; bard song, gear, ability mods, etc., I'm not so sure anymore. I've heard so many conflicting things with people citing so many different sources ("A DM told me that . . .," or "I heard . . ."). I've done some research via NWNwiki and Bioware boards and so far have been unable to uncover anything substantial or concrete. Then again, my research has equated to one whole hour, maybe, so I wasn't breaking my back trying to find answers . But if anyone has knowledge of and or would like to share it, it would be much appreciated.

In the end, I think this mod emphasizes the need for team play, especially when it comes to combatting sneaks. Sometimes its frustrating because you can't get the team together that you would like and have to make do with what you can. This party/group/team emphasis is what makes my time spent on the server all the more enjoyable. SD's provide a very unique and satisfying challenge for a team to overcome.

[disastro]

my interpretation of that nwn dev post is that while skill ranks + stat + (up to +50) from items/buffs is capped at 127, your final actual check can be much more than that.

127 +1d20 + situational modifiers can go over the cap when you actually do a skill check. i.e. you are at 127 hide, roll a d20, but you are small stature so you get +4 (we are now in situational mod uncapped territory) and you are a ranger in the wildnerness +4 and its dark +4 etc.

the final check is uncapped, but the bit that gets you over the hump is the additional mods not reflected in your character sheet. (this is confirmation of what linuxpup suspected earlier in the thread)

to be honest i think its a little sad that we are routinely running into game engine skill caps due to items and effects. gives ya that warm 'uber toon feel' you know you've been missing.

[Celorn]

to be honest i think its a little sad that we are routinely running into game engine skill caps due to items and effects. gives ya that warm 'uber toon feel' you know you've been missing.

simple solution: remove all epic rings from the mod

alternate: make epic rings available to all, not just the lucky ones that were on at the right time for the right occasion.

I know of 4 different epic rings, back during the "Snakes on the Air Plane" event where someone won 2 of each.

[Amoenotep]

yeah, its hard to undo the past...but when its undone..you'll know about it