fix tensers

[lord_modred]

i was playing the single player game just now and happened to notice this...

i cant believe that they managed to screw this up in both games... tensers transformation is NOT supposed to strip the caster of all of their god damned gear! the spell is practically useless the way it is because it strips you of any armor you're wearing and gives you a sh*tty +2 great sword in place of the item that you were using. The way tensers is supposed to work is that it gives you attack bonus, health bonus, and ability bonuses. nothing more, nothing less. I don't know why these game developers feel that they need to ruin these kinds of things.

[Lokey]

Even funnier: read the description in either game.

I thought about it for 10 seconds, then it took me two minutes to do it like PnP for ns4. Granted it took a little longer to write some math for figuring what the ab bonus should be...

ETA: Keep forgetting about the non-stacking stats in nwn2, so it's not cut and dry there for the stat boost part. Might be able to chain something into barb rage (which bypasses that limit but I forget how).

[Chernobyl_Glow]

Great Topic. I’d like to be the first to sign the “Fix Tenser’s” petition. I know nothing of the single player game. I didn’t even know that NS4 had a single player game. However, on the NS4 Server, Tenser’s does a much better job of doing exactly what you say. “…gives you attack bonus, health bonus, and ability bonuses. nothing more, nothing less.”

But it is not correct.

Again, it is better but not hardly like the description. The math to figure AB is written as 1 ab per 2 caster levels. My character has 26 Sorc. When I cast this I should get AB of 13 added. This is not happening. I get 5. I was told that the actual math implemented on NS4 is the same as Divine Power. i.e. “Base attack bonus improves to that of a fighter of the same character level.” So for my character I only get AB bonus of 5 which is a difference of 8!

AC is another problem. Some sources say that the AC from Tensers should stack but it does not. In NS4 it is classified as Natural Armor. So a +4 Natural Armor Amulet effectively negates the effect as does Epic Mage Armor or Earth Genasi ability.

Other than those two attributes the spell operates nicely in NS4. It does not change your appearance. Does not strip your gear. Does not give you a lousy greatsword (I use my Lumi +7 all the time). The temp HP are added. The strength and dex bonus is calculated properly and the Fort bump is great.

…

If the stats were changed to be exactly as the spell description this could be a very effective spell. But you are correct, as it is now it is pretty useless. NS4 developers have done a great job of trying to make this spell work as stated in spite of the poor execution by the Bioware Developers. Just a little tweaking is all it needs.

Best regards,

- Glow -

On another note: Can we get a little less cussing in your posts? Thx.

[Lokey]

You're forgetting after level 20 everyone gains BAB at the same rate. So for a level 26 sorc (one class I assume) you'd get +10 ab and two additional attacks as you get the same bab epic that the fighter gets. I.e. a 26 fighter has bab of 23, not 26.

At least that's what I read the intention being (make you a fighter more or less). I think just slapping caster level/2 ab bonus onto someone say reading a scroll would be a bad idea

[Chernobyl_Glow]

Lokey,

This is such a complicated subject. As politely as possible, I disagree.

My char is Mnk6, Pal8, Sorc26. My BAB is 25 and a lvl 40 fighter would be 30. By using Divine Power script for AB I only gain 5 vs 13. To your point tho, at 15 levels ago the spell was awesome. At level 25 picking up 5 ab, str, dex, etc can make a huge difference. Unfortunately, the spell diminishes in value as a player progresses toward 40. Like you state, Epic AB progression is 1 for 2 levels making all classes more even as you approach 40. **Really a pure fighter on NS4 gets 5 extra AB by 40 for being "pure" but this is not considered in the equation.

The intent of the spell is that an arcane caster uses this spell to become a powerful fighter. As the caster gets more powerful so should his spell. Just like Cone of Cold or Earthquake do. Currently Tensers loses power. The AC becomes useless as it doesn't stack (Natural Armor). I’ve reach the ability cap already with gear and stat buffs. The main point of the spell is the increase to AB. At level 25 I received a +5 ab and this has never increased. Its unfortunate that this is the part that is so drastically changed.

...

I don’t think there is concern with regard to players casting Tensers from scrolls. First, the scrolls are not craftable. I tried to make some for those times that Tenser’s expires in long battles. As they are not craftable, Tenser’s can only be obtained by finding a scroll in a drop like Bigbys. Also, correct me if i'm wrong but if cast from a scroll a spell is at base power, correct? i.e. +5 ab and 11d6 temp hp and the duration would be for 30 seconds. This is the same effect currently and not have any change if the spell were modified as written. For example:

Ftr35/Rog5 might find a scroll and cast it upon himself at a critical point.

With Divine Power Version as a base he would get:
0 AB (already at 30 ab) 2d4 str and dex. +5 Fort and 11d6 HP (~39hp)

With AB calc at 1 per 2 caster levels he would get:
5 AB (11 lvls) 2d4 str and dex. +5 Fort and 11d6 HP (~39hp)


A pure Rogue40 would get these benefits:

With Divine Power Version he would get:
5 AB (25 ab vs 30 ab) 2d4 str and dex. +5 Fort and 11d6 HP (~39hp)

With AB calc at 1 per 2 caster levels he would get:
5 AB (11 /2 =5 lvls) 2d4 str and dex. +5 Fort and 11d6 HP (~39hp)

I could list a bunch more examples but I just don’t see how changing the AB calculation would have any significant effect on those casting it from a scroll. A change to ab calculation would only benefit a player that can legitimately cast the spell AND who have many levels of caster. And keep in mind in order to have those many levels of Sorc I had to suffer the standard 1 per 2 levels BAB progression.

...

I believe it inappropriate to model Tenser's calc based on a Cleric’s Divine Power spell. A pure cleric would get 5 ab from DP and extra attacks. But a cleric has other spells to improve his AB which a Sorc/Wiz does not. Further a Cleric gets weapon/armor proficiencies along with the spell casting ability. Sorc/Wiz do not. Other sacrifies would need to be made in order to effectively use Tenser’s as a Wiz. For a cleric these sacrifices are not as drastic. Further a Cleric can continue to use casting abilities while Divine Power is in effect. A Wiz with Tensers must be committed to the sword once he casts it. Remember that casting another spell cancels Tenser’s immediately. (I assume the same is true with the scrolls).

My concept was to make a unique character focusing in a seldom used spell. I feel like the concept had great potential but has failed to a degree. If my focus is the sword then I must be able to hit. I expected 13 ab from Tenser’s to compensate for the poor BAB progressions etc. 5 ab just isn’t enough to make it worth using the spell much and therefore defeats the purpose of the build.

I still struggle to see a scenario where this spell could be abused. Virtually no one uses it as is which supports my belief that it is underpowered.

All that said, I really appreciate the effort NS4 has put into the spell. I understand that many servers still use the Bioware version which is HORRIBLE. Unfortunately, ours is also practically useless. If casting from a scroll is the only concern then I would plead that you calculate AB as 1/2 levels and simply have the scrolls drop less often or never.

Best,

- Glow -

[Flailer]

You guys realize you're talking about this in the NWN2 forums right? So, all these suggestions are for how we implement it in NS5?

[Lokey]

It means we don't have to slum in the NWN1 section

As far as NWN2, arcanes have the heroism line, rage and something else out of the box. At least they aren't the Range: personal type of thing that the best divine buffs tend to be (i.e. divine power, righteous might). Of course in PnP you have rings of spell storing and other methods to get them (pearl of power so the caster gets the spell back for his own use).

I'll mention I did the Tensor's Trans and Divine Power rewrites before Pure classes were a gleam in Sparky's eye...whenever the GetBAB and SetBAB functions were patched in (before that we had to guess). The code for calculating it was the same between the two spells and is like this if you have suggestions for ns4:

Code: Select all

    // Temp hitpoints (can't hurt to be a bit generous) <--- Did I write that???
    int nHP = 5 * nLevel;

    // Everything else is hitdie based
    nLevel = GetHitDice(oCaster);

    // Turn into a full BAB melee engine
    int nBAB = GetBaseAttackBonus(oCaster), nAB_bonus;
    int nExtraAttack = 0;

    // Pre-epic, final bab = hitdie
    if(nLevel < 21)
    {
        nAB_bonus = nLevel - nBAB;
        // Think this is right NWN silliness notwithstanding
        //    ...math-wise it's TRUNC(nLevel/5)-TRUNC(nBAB-5)
        nExtraAttack = (nLevel-1)/5 - (nBAB-1)/5;
    }
    // Epic level hurdles
    else
    {
        // BAB increases by 1 every odd level post 20
        nAB_bonus = (nLevel - 19)/2 + 20 - nBAB;
        // done with nBAB...subtract off BAB contribution from epic levels
        nBAB -= (nLevel - 19)/2;
        nExtraAttack = 4 - (nBAB-1)/5;
    }

as I saw the two spells' intentions of being turn the caster into a full bab for the purposes of melee.

Unfortunately ns4's spell system wasn't uniformly balanced at any point in time. Due to lack of devs it was the smooth out the bumps in the wallpaper method: whatever seems really out of line gets nerfageddon, with some thought given to what's changed and how those changes are presented.

Anyway, you can check my math for errors with what I intended. Other things: ab bonuses are limited to 20, and that includes what's on your weapon besides almost everything else. In NWN1 without a hak...if you wanted something more powerful, the spell could do different things if empowered or maximized I guess, but remember the ns4 team doesn't currently have a lot of scripters, and they have a lot going on right now and into the near future. But feel free to take to the ns4 ideas forum.

[Chernobyl_Glow]

Ug. Flailer, I did not realize that this was NWN2 Subject. This is just a hot button for me and I saw Mordred's post on the "active topics" list and replied.

I guess nevermind. Ignore me.

Thanks for the replies.

- Glow -

**goes back to slumming in NS4.* hehe

[diddy33]

well i guess you were just thinking ahead huh Glow?
He just wanted to make sure it was looked at in NS5 is all. .