Improve Exlated ruler?

lector_ns3 · Post by **lector_ns3** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:47 pm

I was thinking that maybe you could improve Exalted ruler a little, because i'm under the impression that it is supposed to be the strongest creature on the server, but it can be killed by two players with out any problem, and a dragon can very easy tank it almost without using a heal.
And a few weaks ago i went down there with 2 others and they were hitting two dwarves and i was hitting ruler and i got him down to injured without any problems (i did though have darkfire on me, but it aint that much extra damage).
Gilon starfall leader on the other hand can't really be tanked by a dragon (at least not by mine) and i think he's a bid thougher to kill, which i don't think he sould be.
Basicly i think ruler has gotten too easy to kill.

Thanks for reading this suggestion.

DM ex Machina_ns3 · Post by **DM ex Machina_ns3** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 3:59 pm

you realize that posts like this will most likely result in ther nerf of your build . . .

DrakhanValane_ns3 · Post by **DrakhanValane_ns3** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 4:02 pm

DM ex Machina wrote:you realize that posts like this will most likely result in ther nerf of your build . . .

Sweet!

Dr_Fangorn_ns3 · Post by **Dr_Fangorn_ns3** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 5:03 pm

And people wonder why I want to nerf the Dragon Shifters so badly...

Aaron315_ns3 · Post by **Aaron315_ns3** » Sat Aug 05, 2006 10:23 pm

*Drags everyone involved in this post outside and shoots them* Thank you for making a useful suggestion! Be prepared to face the consequences *waves bye bye to any dragon build he's ever done* Whilst you mention it those WM have far too much ab for my liking (you seen those monks recently, hell look at that shifter), next.....?

*Edit: Just incase anyone takes me too seriously this is a sarcastic response and meant to be tongue in cheek!*

Hex-kalibur_ns3 · Post by **Hex-kalibur_ns3** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:24 am

instead of nerf the dragons increase the foes's power =)

lougha_ns3 · Post by **lougha_ns3** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:16 am

instead of nerf the dragons increase the foes's power =)

That only results in creating a situation in which a majority of the fun builds are underpowered and can not compete. Before long, it would force everyone to own a dragon in their vault.
I agree w/ Fang that the dragons are a bit uber, but I don't want to see them nerfed (I've been taken on many a twilight run by various dragons

).

This gets back to the discussion of what to do for the really good players who get bored... Several of the experienced players of MW have found GREAT solutions to that (and I'mma brag on a few).

If we could just but take a glimpse into Paco's vault, most of us would shudder and run in horror at the vast number of "underpowered" builds in there. But he keeps cranking them out cause they are a challenge and they are fun!

Though probably in a alcohol induced state, Mars, convinced many GREAT players (Gryph, Knight, Z, and many others) to commit to accept the MW tag - playing toons from scratch, with NO twinking or help for toons that did.

While less than likeable, the Racers even caught that madness and started the 'pure evil' family with the same guidelines.

Blaskor and Mars (again, likely a few drinks into the night

) started the war of the beard - and using the honor system, are imposing restrictions to make things interesting.

These are but a few examples of players taking the initiative to mix things up for them selves; creating their own challenge and leaving the mod changes to the Dev's - who I might add do a WONDERFUL job pleasing the vet's while not overwhelming us n00b's. If the Dev's made the major areas hard enough to stump even the best of the best - with the uber builds - that would leave n00b's like me out in the cold.

lector_ns3 · Post by **lector_ns3** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 11:43 am

Well it aint just dragons that has got an easy time at ruler. dd's, sorc's (when they use epic warding), and builds with good ac (and with some concealment) can also survive easely down there. and you dont need more than 6 attacks and a good ab to beat he's regen, so its not just the dragons that are too good in my opinion.

computergui_ns3 · Post by **computergui_ns3** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 11:52 am

This is an interesting thread and one I'm glad the devs are paying attention to. I too, like many other players, have done Dragons. Are they overpowered, well in relation to other types of toons I would say yes.

On of the great aspects of NS is the way it's challenges are balanced for many different toons/classes or team combinations. Most uber gear areas required thought out parties to succeed. Subtract the Dragons and I still think thats the case today.

If we start boosting the abilities of these areas and bosses to challenge the current Dragons, we'll see fewer and fewer other toons/classes and more and more Dragons, which I think, would be a shame.

Dr_Fangorn_ns3 · Post by **Dr_Fangorn_ns3** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:49 pm

For everyone's information, Pros and I have to keep things in perspective for the lowest common denominator, ie. a vault wipe, and the kind of player base we'd have starting afresh (Don't worry, a vault wipe is NOT on its way). This certainly doesn't apply for the epic areas like Starfall, G1, or the EC run, but think about those run of the mill places that you go to level your toons up for the first 20 or 25 levels. Things have to be kept in perspective to keep the gameplay experience fair and balanced for all classes and combinations thereof.

Now, that being said, this thread is focused on the Exalted Ruler. If everyone recalls TWO YEARS AGO when Exalted and Death Lord were the kings of the hill, it took people a lot of time in big groups to succeed. As the mod has evolved, peoples' builds got smarter and stronger, the number of people required to do the EC and DwP runs dwindled. We are now at a point where a group of relatively noobish DwP runners can do it comfortably, and our veteran players can do it with just two or three players. We have to keep the playing field as level as possible for all comers. I am not a big fan of Dragon Shifters, as many people know, but I think we're at a point where the mod has undergone some fantastic evolution and is actually quite balanced. There are a few inequalities (non-shifting druids, for example), but Pros and I are making do with what we can do for the NS 3.5 playerbase given the toolset's abilities and limitations. Thus the fairest thing to do is ensure that certain builds are not too overpowered...which is why palemasters and risen lords were nerfed in the past.

paco_ns3 · Post by **paco_ns3** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:10 pm

lougha wrote:
instead of nerf the dragons increase the foes's power =)
If we could just but take a glimpse into Paco's vault, most of us would shudder and run in horror at the vast number of "underpowered" builds in there. But he keeps cranking them out cause they are a challenge and they are fun!

yay!!! i get mentioned!! lmao

and it is true, i have so many bad toons that it's quite funny. however, theres nothing like finishing up that wiz/dd/pm that has no ab to speak of, 2 attacks, and still gets batted around by most of the baddies. buuuut.... i have one and you dont ha ha haha ha!!!!
im half convinced that i can come up with some rarely thought of builds that can end up being good alternatives to the "regularly" sought out ones.

one day...

i will have tried them all!!!!!! mwuahahahahahahahaaaaaaa!

DM ex Machina_ns3 · Post by **DM ex Machina_ns3** » Wed Aug 09, 2006 3:20 pm

and it is true, i have so many bad toons that it's quite funny. however, theres nothing like finishing up that wiz/dd/pm that has no ab to speak of, 2 attacks, and still gets batted around by most of the baddies. buuuut.... i have one and you dont ha ha haha ha!!!!
im half convinced that i can come up with some rarely thought of builds that can end up being good alternatives to the "regularly" sought out ones.

I've done the same quest. Only problem is that it becomes as standard build as soon as people see you playing it, unless you have the self-restraint to be secretive, which I don't. And they can snoop the classes on the login screen anyway.

But yes, there's good builds that are still uncommon.

tried the dd/wiz/pm. for a pm that has no ab, i liked 10 wiz 20 pm 10 sd better.

Forge_ns3 · Post by **Forge_ns3** » Thu Aug 10, 2006 9:53 am

I'm going to go to bat for the dragons here:

I would like to address the idea that dragons are overpowered. I will readily admit that dragons are quite powerful. It is tough to create a toon that can keep up with them in the area of combat stats. AC and HPs are typically very high. AB can be quite good. But there are a number of things that I think balance the dragon and make it a powerful, but not overpowered build.

1. Damage - damage on a dragon sucks. In the NS mod, damage is all about your crits. Dragons can only crit on a 19-20 and then it is only for x2. That is about as bad as it gets. Granted, they get more attacks than the standard weaponmaster... but their damage is pathetic. Against high soak/resist foes, this can be the difference between a successful fight, a trip on the NS express, or chugging 50 heals. Damage is the entire point of ANY melee build and dragons, quite frankly, aren't great at it.

2. Looting - I know.. it may seem petty.. and maybe I'm just lazy.. but the looting restriction on shifted forms is a real pain in the neck that I think impacts the usefulness of the build. Ever tried to make lots of gold fast with a dragon? It is a nightmare. My dragon toons are ALWAYS broke.

3. Lack of item use - neglecting the giant dragon butt, most people are happy to have a dragon in their party... until they die. Dragons cannot res anyone while in form. This is a significant tactical disadvantage that other builds do not suffer from.

4. Lo, how the mighty have fallen (aka: Dying in Form) - if you die while shifted and then get res'd in the middle of combat, chances are you are about to be dead again. All of your gear attributes will be gone until you shift again. In other words, you are toast. While dragons are tough to kill, it is certainly possible.. and once they go down, it can be VERY difficult for them to get back into combat. It is typically easier for the rest of the party to finish the fight and then res the dragon toon afterwards.

So yes... I will readily admit that at first glance, dragons might seem a bit overpowered. However, I think that they have some secondary issues that bring them back in line with other well built melee toons from an overall perspective.

Just my two cents.

Yeti_ns3 · Post by **Yeti_ns3** » Thu Aug 10, 2006 10:53 am

forge is right... may seem overpowered but they have their strong points and they like every other build have weak points too.

DM ex Machina_ns3 · Post by **DM ex Machina_ns3** » Thu Aug 10, 2006 11:09 am

oh, I'm right there with yah Forge. those are the things I bring up when nerfing come around the discussion.

I'd add:

They're a PITA to play. Get stuck in walls, have to reshift to get through narrow places etc.

Also the AI is dumb as a rock, and it gets confused in mobs and often switches targets. OR it just disengages and leaves you flatfooted and often instantly dead.