Strength Tweaks

[Rocco_ns3]

So now all those run-of-the mill scimitar-wielding shifters will be more powerful?

I can see arguments for putting more damage on a 2-handed weapon, since they really get screwed from the 1.5 damage modifier doing very little. However, adding 36 damage (did I add that right? )to a one handed STR triton seems way over the top. Quite frankly, if people can't build survivable STR builds (well, using a shield anyway), then they're not trying hard enough.

Also, what's up with the +2 and +4 to hit? Just because str builds have a habit of ending up with a couple less ab, doesn't mean that they require a bump. Should mage staves have +20 to hit just because they have a hard time with melee?

Finally, trying to turn a two-handed weapon into an ice shield with AC bonuses and soak doesn't make any sense. You should have to decide between damage and defence, not get both. I agree that 2-handed tritons deserve a damage boost - but they shouldn't give you some magical defense.

"Balance" doesn't mean that every build should be able to solo every area, and I'm not convinced that STR builds are as broken as people seem to think. 2-handed STR builds, sure, they're broken to some degree - but 1-handed STR builds can survive just fine if you build them right.

Well, I knew I would get peoples attention if I posted something like this. okay, let's see.

First, It doesn't ahve to be that damage bonus inparticaular, I threw it out there, something for the DEVs to test and see if it works or is too much. It is obvious that the current STR builds need a little more.

The Plus to hit was part of getting the STR toons to do more damage through more hits, so you wouldn't have to get nuts on things like more soak or AC. It, again, was an idea, and again, something for the DEVs to test and disreguard if it was too over the top.

In reguards to the two-handed weapons getting a AC bonus, they already do, the Scythe has a +5 to AC, but it is a deflection bonus and totally worthless since other items cancel it out. So that is where I got that. If you are going to add a AC bonus to the item, it needs to be at least +10, and that will most likely be the equal of a +1 to AC over all. As to soak, not having the best soak in the game makes STR builds, especially two-handed STR builds considerably weaker. Doesn't matter how much damage you do if you die from a few hits before you can hit anything.

AGIAN, the whole thing was a suggestion and meant to be a base for testing purposes, not the final product for the players to have. It is probable that the bonus to hit would get elimintated, along with the soak and some of the damage. However, I could see the AC bonus staying along with some of the extra damage.

[Rocco_ns3]

Try this out and see how they would effect the different areas of the module. If they are too powerful, tone them down, if they are not enough, beef them up.

Well from a devs perspective you can always go up, but, it's like pulling teeth to come down.

Add 2D6 or so worth of damage to a one haded STR weapon, add 2d12 or so to a two handed STR weapon.... Give the two hander +10 to Deflection since thats the only type of AC you can put on it.... and go with it.

If it's to weak boost it later.

The STR fighters with their old weapons can go hit the mighty stone of destruction and get a new weapon after a goop run.

Fang did make mnetion in his post that there could be a porblem with grandfathered gear. He's right... this methof prevents the dev's from having to do it. We don't want to add killer weapons like Rocco proposed to the mod then as DM's have to strip them off toons later because they are over powered. Take small steps and see what becomes of it.

I understand what you are saying, but I think you misunderstood what I intended. I wrote the above for the DEVs to have a base to go off of. Make a new weapon like that and spend a few hours playing with it. If it is too much, the DEV reduces the items and tests it some more.

Again, I wasn't proposing make these like this and send them out into the world for the players. I went through the trouble of making the weapon and laying it out, so others might get the ball rolling.

Sometimes it is easier if someone else does a little of the work for you. If all I did was inspire the DEVs with an idea or two, then my job here is done.

[DM Clang_ns3]

Not into quoting today.

For those not into post that lean negative, or mention balance.

24/7 a well built dex build will out do a well built str build.

thats what we are trying to fix.

P.S. Mages needing melee buff? if a point cant be made on its own dont throw in an exaggerated one.


A further note....
Is there anyway possible to script a class "OUT" of using a weapon?
For instance I would like to see these new weapons not be usable by shifters, they stand alone as is.

[MadBovine_ns3]

Yep, sure is. Inside the module-wide OnPlayerEquipItem script you just toss a check in, such as:

Code: Select all

object oItem = GetPCItemLastEquipped();
object oPC   = GetPCItemLastEquippedBy();
if( GetLevelByClass(CLASS_TYPE_SHIFTER,oPC) )
     {
     DestroyObject(oItem, 0.0f);
     }

Then if a PC has at least one level in shifter the restricted weapon will go poof when they try to equip it. Brute force method that will make players cry.

And for those who say that it is fair that finesse weapons do as much damage as strength weapons, let's not forget that the reason to take strength over dex is That you will do more damage on successful hits than a dexterity based character will. If you don't believe this then take a dex character and a strength char and have then thwack away at each other with non-enchanted weapons. By having so many dice of damage on every weapon, the benefits of focusing on strength or using a two handed weapon are completely negated in favor of a finnessable weapon with a high crit threat range.

The easy way to fix this without all the Dex'ers crying (Dex'ers? I meant Dev'ers) is to increase the damage on non finnesse weapons, and to majorly increase the damage on two handed weapons in order to reflect how the weapon mechanics are supposed to work.

To put it in perspective, what is going to cause more damage, a 25lb sledgehammer or a stick? D&D damage is based on overall damage done to a target, any specific damage is treated with critical hits, which is why the finesse weapons, in general, have a higher critical threat range than strength weapons. THAT reflects that a precise strike with a light weapon can strike more critical areas of a creature than a brute force smash with a hammer, thus causing more damage (Which is again a representation of overall damage). As far as a halfling wielding a rapier... guess what, it is still finessable. And a halfling can still wield a warhammer, war axe, etc... and is not limited to only using a rapier.

[Rocco_ns3]

Not into quoting today.

For those not into post that lean negative, or mention balance.

24/7 a well built dex build will out do a well built str build.

thats what we are trying to fix.

P.S. Mages needing melee buff? if a point cant be made on its own dont throw in an exaggerated one.


A further note....
Is there anyway possible to script a class "OUT" of using a weapon?
For instance I would like to see these new weapons not be usable by shifters, they stand alone as is.

What is wrong with giving a shifter more items, you , you, you classist

Seriously though, I can't see a reason why, as a shifter, or new to the ranks of shifter, why I would want any weapon other than a kama or fists. Cause then you get more attacks. So by the very nature, they shouldn't take anything less. Which has always made me wonder, "Why the shifty Scimitar?" What is so great about that?

Yep, sure is. Inside the module-wide OnPlayerEquipItem script you just toss a check in, such as:

Code: Select all

object oItem = GetPCItemLastEquipped();
object oPC   = GetPCItemLastEquippedBy();
if( GetLevelByClass(CLASS_TYPE_SHIFTER,oPC) )
     {
     DestroyObject(oItem, 0.0f);
     }

Then if a PC has at least one level in shifter the restricted weapon will go poof when they try to equip it. Brute force method that will make players cry.

And for those who say that it is fair that finesse weapons do as much damage as strength weapons, let's not forget that the reason to take strength over dex is That you will do more damage on successful hits than a dexterity based character will. If you don't believe this then take a dex character and a strength char and have then thwack away at each other with non-enchanted weapons. By having so many dice of damage on every weapon, the benefits of focusing on strength or using a two handed weapon are completely negated in favor of a finnessable weapon with a high crit threat range.

The easy way to fix this without all the Dex'ers crying (Dex'ers? I meant Dev'ers) is to increase the damage on non finnesse weapons, and to majorly increase the damage on two handed weapons in order to reflect how the weapon mechanics are supposed to work.

To put it in perspective, what is going to cause more damage, a 25lb sledgehammer or a stick? D&D damage is based on overall damage done to a target, any specific damage is treated with critical hits, which is why the finesse weapons, in general, have a higher critical threat range than strength weapons. THAT reflects that a precise strike with a light weapon can strike more critical areas of a creature than a brute force smash with a hammer, thus causing more damage (Which is again a representation of overall damage). As far as a halfling wielding a rapier... guess what, it is still finessable. And a halfling can still wield a warhammer, war axe, etc... and is not limited to only using a rapier.

Pretty much what I said in the prvious post when I listed a new proposal for damage on STR weapons and again in my thread, "A triton is a triton is a triton, but is it?" thread in the general discussion. Good reading if I do say so myself; and I do

[Rocco_ns3]

So now all those run-of-the mill scimitar-wielding shifters will be more powerful?

I can see arguments for putting more damage on a 2-handed weapon, since they really get screwed from the 1.5 damage modifier doing very little. However, adding 36 damage (did I add that right? )to a one handed STR triton seems way over the top. Quite frankly, if people can't build survivable STR builds (well, using a shield anyway), then they're not trying hard enough.

There ya go, put the script above on the item and now the shifties won't use it, much to thier dismass.


Also, I didn't [censored] it up, but if you say that I had an extra 36 points of damage, do you think that is really unreasonable? It helps to balance the field. If STR don't have as high a AC or soak, that is fine, but they should do more damage.

[Forge_ns3]

Seriously though, I can't see a reason why, as a shifter, or new to the ranks of shifter, why I would want any weapon other than a kama or fists. Cause then you get more attacks. So by the very nature, they shouldn't take anything less. Which has always made me wonder, "Why the shifty Scimitar?" What is so great about that?

When you shift, you go to an unarmed state and you get the monk AB progression even if you are armed with a scimitar or whatever while unshifted. I am not aware of any overwhelming reason TO use a scimitar, because all of your fighting will be done while shifted anyway... but there's no reason NOT to use one either.






Also, last time I checked, rapiers were not finessable for small stature PCs like halflings.

[Rocco_ns3]

Seriously though, I can't see a reason why, as a shifter, or new to the ranks of shifter, why I would want any weapon other than a kama or fists. Cause then you get more attacks. So by the very nature, they shouldn't take anything less. Which has always made me wonder, "Why the shifty Scimitar?" What is so great about that?

When you shift, you go to an unarmed state and you get the monk AB progression even if you are armed with a scimitar or whatever while unshifted. I am not aware of any overwhelming reason TO use a scimitar, because all of your fighting will be done while shifted anyway... but there's no reason NOT to use one either.






Also, last time I checked, rapiers were not finessable for small stature PCs like halflings.

Hmm, well I guess I see why people use them, but I am using the bulletproof gloves cause it offers a +12 to hit. Although, with my missing 2 AB from some unnamed source, perhaps I should try the shifter scimitar and see if I get the same attack bonus.

[Anonymous_ns3]

:)

[Rocco_ns3]

After completing the Dragonstone quest, 3 times ( I had most of the items in quantity ) I can say that the increases that you get for non finesse weapons is very nice and even something like that goes a long way towards making STR builds better.

I would wait for some more comclusive results before modifing the Tritons, as an example, but good job.