Strength Tweaks

Information about fixes, tweaks and updates to NS3.5.
User avatar
Rocco_ns3
Newbie Helper
Posts: 456
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 8:55 pm

Post by Rocco_ns3 »

STR of 28 or 30 wouldn't be bad, but if you made it so you had to have a 34 STR, then you pretty much have to start with a 18 STR and pump the hell out of it so only ALL STR build could get
"You there, fetch me that jewel from that gem encrusted skull," - Robillard to his half-ogre henchman
"Duh, okay," - last words of Grogg, Son of Grogg, as he reached for the Demi-Liches skull.

User avatar
Rocco_ns3
Newbie Helper
Posts: 456
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 8:55 pm

Post by Rocco_ns3 »

lougha wrote:maybe I didn't say things clearly???? It sounds like you were rephraising what I said (er... tried to say). Nerfing down the DEXer's won't work well - Buffing the STR'ers could.

I like the idea of an area that requires a set STR to access that would offer a super STR Triton. Would of course have to be non-drop to keep me from taking my STR toon (and yes I have em Rocco :wink: ) to get an uber Kukri to give my DEX blender.

As for leaving it so STR/CON toons would have a shot at getting them, I would disagree. STR/CON builds typically have EDR in addition to DD levels for a DR through the roof and are fine as they are. I'd say at least a STR 25 would be required... perhaps even higher. Afterall, you can get a STR of 30 and CON of 21 for EDR by 40 if you play your cards right. Maybe an uber triton should require STR of 30 :?:


But actually, I am saying something different. I am in disagreement that the solution should be to arm the STR builds with more, or as much as the thread mentions. The best solution would be to tone down gear, or weapons at any rate, that are DEX based, cause the finesse weapons with the insane crit range is what makes a STR toon vastly inferior to a DEX build. The AC or soak is secondary.

When you do see STR builds, they aren't using two-handed swords or scythes (unless for the one time I must build a character with Reaper in the name) you are seeing STR builds with Rapiers and Kukri and Scimitars. Why, cause when you get to the Triton levels of play, it doesn't matter which triton weapon you have, only that it is a triton. All base Triton damage is the same, so against none crit mobs, you are equal, but against crit mobs, the crit range is a huge factor in the shear amount of damage that you can do, while the crit modifer is secodary.

Not saying that each character should be the same, but in a way the tritons ruined the game cause now you get the best of both worlds for making a DEX build, high AC, high AB and better (or the same) damage than STR builds and the ability to use the Ice Shield and still get an ungodly AC.

We are together on some points only cause to redo the DEX gear would cause a lot of havok, but in truth, I think the best solution is to take away the advantage that DEX builds have by making some of their gear weaker. Having a 108 AC is great when you can get it, but should you really have a 108 AC and +7 40 Soak and the best weapon in the game with a 10-20 crit range. I would say not.

The main thing I would like to see is a higher AC and/or soak on two-handed weapons, like the two-handed sword or the Scythe, so we can get some variations on character concepts instead of the ninja acrobatic kukri wielding halfling bard grouped with the ninja acrobatic monk Kukri wielding halfling who are both power leveling the Two-handed sword wielding Half-Orc STR build player who just doesn't get it yet.
"You there, fetch me that jewel from that gem encrusted skull," - Robillard to his half-ogre henchman
"Duh, okay," - last words of Grogg, Son of Grogg, as he reached for the Demi-Liches skull.

MadBovine_ns3
Pk Bait
Posts: 87
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2004 10:15 pm

Post by MadBovine_ns3 »

For my first point with the triton changes you don't need to have a special area, just update the tritons you cna get from now on so that non-finnese tritons do a lil more damage, and two hander weapons do insane damage. The two handed weapon doesn't need an AC bonus, you choose to forgo a shield for that extra damage! But, with tritons, your "extra" damage is virtually worthless because of the sheer number of dice rolls made per hit. The game was never inteded to have all these dice on a single weapon, hell D&D weapons are only supposed to have a single extra damage type, if any extra dice at all! I mean a flaming longsword will have the stadard slash damage and the fire damage from the flaming property, but you can't get fire acid cold elecetrical acid etc... all on the same weapon at the same time. Since tritons already have all kinds of uber damage, the only feasible solution I see is to rebalance the non-finnese weapons so that they stay on par with how they were originally meant to act. A finnesse weapon does a low amount of damage, but generally hits more often. A standard weapon does an average amount of damage with an average chance to hit. A 2 handed weapon does a LOT of damage with an average chance to hit, but less AC since you can't use a shield.

By the very nature of the changes I suggested, you wouldn't need to make it a "You need xx str to access this area" because a dexer won't find any weapons that would be useful to them since none of them would be finnese weapons.
Sexy Bovine, Nimble Bovine, Unstable Bovine, Ouch Bovine, Master Bovine, .:Bovine:. ... Ok almost any char name with Bovine in it is me.

Forge_ns3
Wheres the donation box?
Posts: 217
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2005 12:36 pm

Post by Forge_ns3 »

So what do you do for a rapier, a finesse weapon for a human, but a two handed weapon for a halfling?????
-Forge [TC]

Gruesome Wolf_ns3
Noob
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2006 9:47 am

Post by Gruesome Wolf_ns3 »

smallest change, IMO, is the new area that requires a certain STR.

Trying to approach it from strictly a finesses perspective means that STR builds are still screwed if they happened to have chosen a weapon that is also finessable.(Like my new word?)

HAving a door that checks STR and gives access to higher damage weapons doesn't impact anything else.

just my opinion...
Cheers,
Gruesome

Wong Fei Wall - Druid-5/Shifter-17/Monk-18
Fervent Earache - Bard-23/RDD-10/WM-7
Void - W-38/ SD-2
Sherman Abram - F-7/WM-7/DD-26
Samaratin Goodwill - C-39/R-1
Pierce Sternum - F-14/WM-7/SD-19

User avatar
Rocco_ns3
Newbie Helper
Posts: 456
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 8:55 pm

Post by Rocco_ns3 »

MadBovine wrote:For my first point with the triton changes you don't need to have a special area, just update the tritons you cna get from now on so that non-finnese tritons do a lil more damage, and two hander weapons do insane damage. The two handed weapon doesn't need an AC bonus, you choose to forgo a shield for that extra damage! But, with tritons, your "extra" damage is virtually worthless because of the sheer number of dice rolls made per hit. The game was never inteded to have all these dice on a single weapon, hell D&D weapons are only supposed to have a single extra damage type, if any extra dice at all! I mean a flaming longsword will have the stadard slash damage and the fire damage from the flaming property, but you can't get fire acid cold elecetrical acid etc... all on the same weapon at the same time. Since tritons already have all kinds of uber damage, the only feasible solution I see is to rebalance the non-finnese weapons so that they stay on par with how they were originally meant to act. A finnesse weapon does a low amount of damage, but generally hits more often. A standard weapon does an average amount of damage with an average chance to hit. A 2 handed weapon does a LOT of damage with an average chance to hit, but less AC since you can't use a shield.

By the very nature of the changes I suggested, you wouldn't need to make it a "You need xx str to access this area" because a dexer won't find any weapons that would be useful to them since none of them would be finnese weapons.


This is along the lines of what I would like to see as well. If you increase the damage on STR based weapons, you are in effect giving the character a high AC cause you are killing creatures faster, thus getting hit less, in theory anyway 8)

Forge wrote:So what do you do for a rapier, a finesse weapon for a human, but a two handed weapon for a halfling?????


Well, I never bought the argument that you should make a "Feel good" small ice shield and small g1 shield, but I can understand where others may decide that it would be fair.

The solution is simple, the DEVs make another catagory for bladed small weapons and make a STR based weapon with Halfling or Gnome as a restrcition, much like they do for the ice and g1 shield.

Gruesome Wolf wrote:smallest change, IMO, is the new area that requires a certain STR.

Trying to approach it from strictly a finesses perspective means that STR builds are still screwed if they happened to have chosen a weapon that is also finessable.(Like my new word?)

HAving a door that checks STR and gives access to higher damage weapons doesn't impact anything else.

just my opinion...


Well, if you want access to a high crit weapon, like the rapier or kukri, and you are doing a STR build, then you would have to take the Scimitar instead. Same crit range, just not, what's the word *search through Webster's On-line list of useless or nonsensical made up words* 'finessable.' :P
"You there, fetch me that jewel from that gem encrusted skull," - Robillard to his half-ogre henchman
"Duh, okay," - last words of Grogg, Son of Grogg, as he reached for the Demi-Liches skull.

Forge_ns3
Wheres the donation box?
Posts: 217
Joined: Thu Sep 29, 2005 12:36 pm

Post by Forge_ns3 »

Nerfing DEX gear is no good. As Fang has pointed out, doing so would require a complete wipe of all servers to remove all the grandfathered gear. Gonna have to find a way to do it by adding something, not taking away.
-Forge [TC]

computergui_ns3
Wiki Editor
Posts: 199
Joined: Tue May 03, 2005 11:35 am

Post by computergui_ns3 »

I've been on other servers that had some very unique STR only items. The items were restricted to toons with a high STR stat. So, for example, an amulet with a 30 STR restriction could add a lot of important stats to a STR toon and potentially level the playing field a bit without impacting the existing gear.

Just a suggestion.
Mars * [TC]

disastro_ns3
Pk Bait
Posts: 72
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 11:35 pm

Post by disastro_ns3 »

I would recommend against creating areas with a strength (or any stat) restriction to get into.

Mechanics that force apart friends partying together suck. you can accomplish the same thing with scripts/npcs/quest items/etc.

User avatar
Rocco_ns3
Newbie Helper
Posts: 456
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 8:55 pm

Post by Rocco_ns3 »

Okay, let's take the bull by the horns here. Here is a normal run of the mill triton:

2d4 acid
2d12 bludgeoning
2d4 cold
2d6 divine
2d6 electrical
2d4 fire
2d12 piercing
2d12 slashing
2d8 sonic
+8 weapon enhancement
Extra melee damage piercing
Extra melee damage slashing
Keen
Massive critical 2d12
And a +1 in one of your 6 ability scores

In addition to these abilities, there are three types of tritons, red, blue and white. Each color gives an additional type of damage, red gives an additional 2d12 negative energy, white gives an additional 2d12 positive energy and blue give an additional 2d12 magical damage.

Two exceptions I can tell are that a few of the white tritons, like the long sword, have holy avenger, and there are specific tritons just for mages, and clerics but not bard or druids.


Proposed change to one-handed weapons that you can not take weapon Finesse in (this would be a Blue triton):

2d12 magical damage
+5 magical damage
2d4 acid
+2 acid
2d12 bludgeoning
+5 bludgeoning
2d4 cold
+2 cold
2d6 divine
+3 divine
2d6 electrical
+3 electrical
2d4 fire
+2 fire
2d12 piercing
+5 piercing
2d12 slashing
+5 slashing
2d8 sonic
+4 sonic
+8 weapon enhancement
+2 bonus to hit
Extra melee damage piercing
Extra melee damage slashing
Keen
Massive critical 2d12
Massive critical 2d12
And a +1 in one of your 6 ability scores

Proposed change to two-handed weapons that you can not take weapon Finesse in and would not be able to use a shield with (this would be a Blue triton). Note, a [censored] sword would be as above:

2d12 magical damage
+10 magical damage
2d4 acid
+4 acid
2d12 bludgeoning
+4 bludgeoning
2d4 cold
+4 cold
2d6 divine
+6 divine
2d6 electrical
+6 electrical
2d4 fire
+4 fire
2d12 piercing
+10 piercing
2d12 slashing
+10 slashing
2d8 sonic
+8 sonic
+8 weapon enhancement
+4 bonus to hit
Extra melee damage piercing
Extra melee damage slashing
Extra melee damage piercing
Extra melee damage slashing
Keen
Massive critical 2d12
Massive critical 2d12
Massive critical 2d12
+7 40 Soak
+14-20 AC bonus

Try this out and see how they would effect the different areas of the module. If they are too powerful, tone them down, if they are not enough, beef them up. Basically I added a +2 more damage to the 2d4 damage types, +3 to the 2d6, +4 to the 2d8 and +5 to the 2d12 and an extra massive critical 2d12, although I think you could also do a +5 to the massive critical instead.

For the two-handed weapons, I doubled this bonus, added in one more Extra melee damage piercing, Extra melee damage slashing and Massive critical 2d12. I am not sure what these extra damages do, so they may be way out of line, or just fine.

Also, with the lack of a shield, I gave the two-handed tritons the +7/40 (I think it was 40) soak of the Ice shield. Yes, you would be getting the benefits before others since they would have to go and kill the Ice Queen for the shield, but it is the only source of that protection in the game, to my knowledge. If halflings and gnomes get their own small Ice and G1 shield, I don't think it too unreasonable that a person wielding a two-handed weapon would get such a bonus on their weapon.

Also, I added a bonus to AC of +14-20. Why is the bonus so high? Because the AC bonus to a weapon is a deflection bonus and would not stack with the characters other higher deflection bonuses. Why give them a AC bonus if you are increasing the damage out put? Because they will have a ridiculously low AC and will most likely die from a few well placed hits before they can get going on massive damage. Especially if they are surrounded and greatly out numbered.

I would not suggest both a soak bonus and an AC bonus of 20. The AC bonus of 20 I would give if you didn't give the soak on the weapon. Then, it would be the equivalent of having a +9 deflection from a ring or bracer and wielding a +11 shield bonus from the Ice shield.

Giving the two-handed wielding character a +14 to AC would be like a +9 bracer or ring and wielding a +5 shield, nothing to over powering there. However, I would include the soak with that, or perhaps a 5% immunity to slashing and piercing damage and 25% immunity to bludgeoning damage. The immunity may be the preferred protection since other shields the character would be missing out on, like the Hyboreon as an example, have a high immunity to certain types of damage. An extra 5 % for piercing and slashing and 25% for bludgeoning should not be game breaking and allow the STR based two-handed wielder the chance to deal some damage without having to drink potions every two seconds.

If you think these are nuts, then at least use them as a base and let's get the ball rolling. I know pros and Fang are reading this thread with great interest. I am also fairly certain they have an idea kicking in their heads too. However, if you haven't thought of this, perhaps give it a try and see what happens. Regardless, the thread has gone on for 5 pages now. Not saying that should be a time limit, but it should have given you plenty of ideas to try out. 8)

And of course, one laid out, right or wrong, for you to use/try. :P

We love ya DEVs, but let's ge rolling, huh :lol:

I know, I have a kid :twisted:

Well, so do I :wink: :P
"You there, fetch me that jewel from that gem encrusted skull," - Robillard to his half-ogre henchman
"Duh, okay," - last words of Grogg, Son of Grogg, as he reached for the Demi-Liches skull.

DM Xero_ns3
Forum Moderator
Posts: 237
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2005 12:14 am

Post by DM Xero_ns3 »

So now all those run-of-the mill scimitar-wielding shifters will be more powerful?

I can see arguments for putting more damage on a 2-handed weapon, since they really get screwed from the 1.5 damage modifier doing very little. However, adding 36 damage (did I add that right? :P)to a one handed STR triton seems way over the top. Quite frankly, if people can't build survivable STR builds (well, using a shield anyway), then they're not trying hard enough.

Also, what's up with the +2 and +4 to hit? Just because str builds have a habit of ending up with a couple less ab, doesn't mean that they require a bump. Should mage staves have +20 to hit just because they have a hard time with melee?

Finally, trying to turn a two-handed weapon into an ice shield with AC bonuses and soak doesn't make any sense. You should have to decide between damage and defence, not get both. I agree that 2-handed tritons deserve a damage boost - but they shouldn't give you some magical defense.

"Balance" doesn't mean that every build should be able to solo every area, and I'm not convinced that STR builds are as broken as people seem to think. 2-handed STR builds, sure, they're broken to some degree - but 1-handed STR builds can survive just fine if you build them right.
If I can tranq out just one freak on stilts, I know I've done my job. - Chief Wiggum

Gruesome Wolf_ns3
Noob
Posts: 49
Joined: Sun Feb 19, 2006 9:47 am

Post by Gruesome Wolf_ns3 »

IMO, basing decisions on what weapons are finessable will just mean that someone will figure out a good way of having dex builds get around the constraints anyway.

I am unclear on what the drawbacks are of simply having a higher damage class of weapons available amongst the tritons that simply require a strength of X(Whatever becomes defined as a strength guild) to wield. Then, there is no debate or way around whether its a strength build trying to use the weapon.

Starting at 18, and perhaps saying that 12 additional points go to STR, by whatever combination of feats or stat bumps... So, base 30, and +12 from gear.

So, 42 minimum strength. Would anyone argue that a toon with a 42 strength is not a strength build?

Wouldn't this be the easiest way of adding to NS? Simply creating a few weapons that require a STR of 42??

I am trying to look at this in terms of what has been brought up already.
1. No one wants a complete restructuring. This way is easy.

2. NWN2 is coming. Debating this forever and getting the perfect path is wasting time. This way is fast.

3. There is no denying that a toon with a 42 STR is a STR toon. (debate about the number, I don't care.)

I am not trying to pretend that putting STR requirements is a new idea. I am trying to say that it would be easy and has been shown to work pretty darn well on all sorts of other servers. I am also trying to stress that time is of the essense if NWN2 is going to sweep away the world anyway, so lets DO something. This way is easy...
Cheers,
Gruesome

Wong Fei Wall - Druid-5/Shifter-17/Monk-18
Fervent Earache - Bard-23/RDD-10/WM-7
Void - W-38/ SD-2
Sherman Abram - F-7/WM-7/DD-26
Samaratin Goodwill - C-39/R-1
Pierce Sternum - F-14/WM-7/SD-19

User avatar
DM_ShadowKeeper_ns3
Forum Moderator
Posts: 211
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2006 7:20 pm

Post by DM_ShadowKeeper_ns3 »

Rocco wrote:
Try this out and see how they would effect the different areas of the module. If they are too powerful, tone them down, if they are not enough, beef them up.



Well from a devs perspective you can always go up, but, it's like pulling teeth to come down.

Add 2D6 or so worth of damage to a one haded STR weapon, add 2d12 or so to a two handed STR weapon.... Give the two hander +10 to Deflection since thats the only type of AC you can put on it.... and go with it.

If it's to weak boost it later.

The STR fighters with their old weapons can go hit the mighty stone of destruction and get a new weapon after a goop run.

Fang did make mnetion in his post that there could be a porblem with grandfathered gear. He's right... this methof prevents the dev's from having to do it. We don't want to add killer weapons like Rocco proposed to the mod then as DM's have to strip them off toons later because they are over powered. Take small steps and see what becomes of it.

User avatar
DM_ShadowKeeper_ns3
Forum Moderator
Posts: 211
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2006 7:20 pm

Post by DM_ShadowKeeper_ns3 »

Rocco wrote:
The best solution would be to tone down gear, or weapons at any rate, that are DEX based, cause the finesse weapons with the insane crit range is what makes a STR toon vastly inferior to a DEX build. The AC or soak is secondary.



Not feasible due to the fact of all the dex based tritons out there. Gotta go with buffing the STR fighter's weapons or leave everything as is. It would be a nightmare trying to get rid of all the old Dex based stuff off toons.... ain't going to happen easily. When I was first talking about nerfing teh Dex based stuff a bit I wasn't even thinking about all the current Dex gear out there. If the Dev's add the nerfed Dex stuff in there has to be a way to get all the existing gear off. I don't think the honor system would work well. hehe

At least if the up the STR weapons you'd see the STR based toon's, mine included, heading off to do mass goop runs. :)
Last edited by K.I.R.G. C.H.E.L.A. on Sat Mar 25, 2006 4:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Lorkar_ns3
Newbie Helper
Posts: 348
Joined: Sun Jan 08, 2006 12:56 pm

Post by Lorkar_ns3 »

I do not claim to know the mechanics of NS, so please attribute any misstatements to an incomplete knowledge of the mod. My question is this; is it possible to change the way STR interacts with DR? Can you, say make STR able to overcome damage immunities in a geometric way? I would think a high STR toon should be able to slice through creatures in a faster manner than a high DEX toon. Maybe using the STR bonus as a percentage to overcome DR, with the highest STR having the best percentages.
Just a few thoughts.

Locked

Return to “Tweaks and mod updates”