Strength Tweaks

[Dr_Fangorn_ns3]

I'm going to throw in my two cents here.

Pros and I have been watching this thread with interest. There have been a lot of good points made. However, there are three things to consider.

First, NWN 2 is 3 months away, and who knows how much of an NS 3.5 player base there will be when that happens.

Second, a revamping of the strength/dexterity weaponry and armors/robes would be a huge undertaking, that would probably require many hours of balancing (and thus see point number one).

Third, for any changes to come into effect and have an impact on gameplay, we would have to wipe the server vaults. There would be so much grandfathered gear in place if we didn't wipe the vaults, which would make any efforts from the 2nd point moot.

Again, we're sitting back and watching what everyone has to say with interest. But keep those three points in mind.

[Rocco_ns3]

I'm going to throw in my two cents here.

Pros and I have been watching this thread with interest. There have been a lot of good points made. However, there are three things to consider.

First, NWN 2 is 3 months away, and who knows how much of an NS 3.5 player base there will be when that happens.

Ah, let's go out with a bang

Second, a revamping of the strength/dexterity weaponry and armors/robes would be a huge undertaking, that would probably require many hours of balancing (and thus see point number one).

Ah, let's go out with a bang

Third, for any changes to come into effect and have an impact on gameplay, we would have to wipe the server vaults. There would be so much grandfathered gear in place if we didn't wipe the vaults, which would make any efforts from the 2nd point moot.

Again, we're sitting back and watching what everyone has to say with interest. But keep those three points in mind.

WHAT!!!
Are you nuts!!!
A vault wipe.

I think we are fine

[Rocco_ns3]

Seriously though, with NWN2 right around the corner, now would be the chance to see what things work and what doesn't. You're going to have to re-create the whole module anyway when NWN2 comes out, so a vault wipe is closer than many of us think.

So, if you don't want to alter the module as a whole, then perhaps select a few player on a few servers, ones you can trust, and give them some variations on weapons/armor etc and see how things work out. If no changes are made between here and then, no problem, but at least you have a better idea if such changes would be effective on the newer module.

[DM Iris_ns3]

I think if you increase the soak on heavy armours you'll run into the problem of DD's walking all areas without running into pretty much any problems (lets face it they can do most anyway).

Dorfs need a special tweak done to soak, not damage.. BUT SMELL!!!

[disastro_ns3]

i guess the least damaging change would be the suggestion to up the damage on non-finessable tritons (with an even bigger damage boost for 2handed weapons), along with the other suggestion to scatter about the lands bigger immunity / soak heavy armor.

that way existing folks could go back and get an updated triton or armor.

maybe an immunity scale system for new armors could be set up based on max dex bonus. leave the current armors where they are, and add 2% immunity per max dex bonus counting back from 8. (an example to make it clearer:)

today's armor: 10% immunity, no change, no nerf.
tomorrows armors:

maxdex 8 armor: 12%
maxdex 6: 14%
maxdex 4: 16%
maxdex 2: 18%
maxdex 1: 20%

you could vary that with soaks instead of immunity (and mess with the numbers) but the idea is to set up a new armor creation guideline that would progressively make each heavier category more soaky.

that gives each class of armor it's own tradeoffs, and maybe some builds would trade a few points of armor class for a few points more damage soak, etc. endless optimization fun for people who are into that sort of thing.

the big risk with this kind of escalation is watching for the corner cases where an insane shield wielding toon could reach 90% immunity with dwd DR on top...

or for huge fun add immunities to weapons instead (2handed => +20% immunity, non-finesse 1 handers +15%). that might be easier to manage.

[Rocco_ns3]

i guess the least damaging change would be the suggestion to up the damage on non-finessable tritons (with an even bigger damage boost for 2handed weapons), along with the other suggestion to scatter about the lands bigger immunity / soak heavy armor.

that way existing folks could go back and get an updated triton or armor.

maybe an immunity scale system for new armors could be set up based on max dex bonus. leave the current armors where they are, and add 2% immunity per max dex bonus counting back from 8. (an example to make it clearer:)

today's armor: 10% immunity, no change, no nerf.
tomorrows armors:

maxdex 8 armor: 12%
maxdex 6: 14%
maxdex 4: 16%
maxdex 2: 18%
maxdex 1: 20%

you could vary that with soaks instead of immunity (and mess with the numbers) but the idea is to set up a new armor creation guideline that would progressively make each heavier category more soaky.

that gives each class of armor it's own tradeoffs, and maybe some builds would trade a few points of armor class for a few points more damage soak, etc. endless optimization fun for people who are into that sort of thing.

the big risk with this kind of escalation is watching for the corner cases where an insane shield wielding toon could reach 90% immunity with dwd DR on top...

or for huge fun add immunities to weapons instead (2handed => +20% immunity, non-finesse 1 handers +15%). that might be easier to manage.

It is not as big a risk as you are making it seem. 90% immunity from 6 different sources is not 90% immunity. Close, but not really. If you have 15% immunity from 6 different sources, it may seem like you have 90% immunity, but really it takes 15% of damage, then 15% off damage, etc. It will be close, but not as close as you think.

[DrakhanValane_ns3]

Damage Immunities are taken as a whole if they are the same damage type. If you place two 50% imms on a cloak and armour, you're immune to that type of damage. Also, Damage Immunity's smallest gradation is 5%.

[Damage Incorporated_ns3]

Wasn't this thread about STR tweaks?

[DrakhanValane_ns3]

We're waxing tangential to the subject, but improving properties of armours or weapons impractical to one with a DEX build is indirectly a STR tweak. :)

[lougha_ns3]

I don't think it is feasible to reduce the soak, immune, or resistance of any dex gear. Nor do I think it feasible to reduce damage to finessabel weaps. Three reasons - 1.) the amount of time to catch each and every piece would be astronomical. 2.) as Fang points out, there will be folks running around with the 'grandfathered' in gear unless there were a wipe. 3.) currently, DEX builds do well and STR builds don't. If DEX builds were brought down to the level of a STR build, then the mobs would need to be brought down a notch or two as well (more dev time).

That said... STR builds are not broken, but they are not as feasible as a solo toon. As a party toon, they have a place. I'd still like to see them get a boost in damage or AC, but don't think nerfing DEX gear or damage is the best solution.

2¢

[Razarr69_ns3]

Maybe make a new triton area that requires a certain STR to open. Inside you could trade in yer goop for the new STR Tritons.

Easy to code. Hurts no one (other than those whose feelings are hurt that they can't get to the new tritons - or ppl on MW who get hit by the new ones!!! ). And minimal amount of coding. Use your old tritons if ya want to or go in to the STR store and get the new one. Now those funkmaster kukri swingin STR builds can't complain bout their weapon being left off the list since it's not a STR weapon per se.

Albeit ya might have to make the STR requirement so high that the new triton becomes a level 36 weapon to keep out the half baked STR builds or dexers posing as STR and taking RDD 10

[paco_ns3]

i had wondered about that as an option, since the majority of my previous d/d gaming experiences involved games with gear that was all stat specific. ie, 23 str req for the ice sword, or 18 int and 15 dex for the bow of the moon.

if there comes a time that a change might actually be made, i would think that offering some str based gear that was stat specific would be easier than recoding other parts.

notice that i did say easier, not to discount previous posts regarding lowering dex abilities vs raising str ones.

[Rocco_ns3]

Maybe make a new triton area that requires a certain STR to open. Inside you could trade in yer goop for the new STR Tritons.

Easy to code. Hurts no one (other than those whose feelings are hurt that they can't get to the new tritons - or ppl on MW who get hit by the new ones!!! ). And minimal amount of coding. Use your old tritons if ya want to or go in to the STR store and get the new one. Now those funkmaster kukri swingin STR builds can't complain bout their weapon being left off the list since it's not a STR weapon per se.

Albeit ya might have to make the STR requirement so high that the new triton becomes a level 36 weapon to keep out the half baked STR builds or dexers posing as STR and taking RDD 10

Well, that is inetersting, but builds like my STR/CON DD have 22 based CON and then the rest in STR so his STR would not be maxed out and would most likely fall into the "half baked" STR builds. So to be fair to all STR builds, you would have to allow a low enough STR where "half baked" DEX build RDD could munckin it.

[Rocco_ns3]

I don't think it is feasible to reduce the soak, immune, or resistance of any dex gear. Nor do I think it feasible to reduce damage to finessabel weaps.

Coming from a man with a lot of DEX builds, I'm sure

Three reasons - 1.) the amount of time to catch each and every piece would be astronomical.

Well, it's not like Fang has a new kid or anything. He has plenty of time on his hands

2.) as Fang points out, there will be folks running around with the 'grandfathered' in gear unless there were a wipe.

Well, I am always against a wipe, takes a long time to re-level everything and myself and many others tend to stop playing for a while out of frustration of losing everything.

I don't think that the solution needs to be to tone down the DEX gear, I think you could change the whole out look at STR builds by giving them gear that would offer some more soak and higher AC bonuses. If you can encode the game to prevent Bards from being Pale Masters and require Wizards and Sorcerers to be level 10 but to take it before level 20, then I think you could make armor with an increased saok and AC that is comparable to power of a high DEX build and make it so only high STR character could use it.

But you don't even need to make it a special script that only high STR characters can use, just put it on armor with a max DEX modifier, like heavy armor, and a DEXer won't touch it

3.) currently, DEX builds do well and STR builds don't. If DEX builds were brought down to the level of a STR build, then the mobs would need to be brought down a notch or two as well (more dev time).

That is a false statement. STR builds can and do, do well. But gettting mauled and running through countless healing potions to keep up with the DEX counter parts is very tough and if you are a STR build with no DR from DD levels, it is really hard to solo cause you will get hit, and hit a lot.

There is a balance issue going on between STR and DEX builds. A little more soak and a higher AC on a few select types of armor, or two handed weapons, goes a long way. Dumbing down the finesse weapons is one way of doing it, but the way to have the least impact on everyone else is to increase weapon damage on STR weapons and/or soak/dr/AC.

There are lots of options, and I think they are all good and most will work without too much disruption.

That said... STR builds are not broken, but they are not as feasible as a solo toon. As a party toon, they have a place. I'd still like to see them get a boost in damage or AC, but don't think nerfing DEX gear or damage is the best solution.

2¢

If it wasn't for the fact that Pros is right, you would have to wipe the server to be on equal footing with the new items, I would say this is exactly the way to go, nerf down the DEX gear and damage to be on more level ground. But the time has passed for a subtractive action.

You either need an addative solutuion or a whole module remake and wipe.

[lougha_ns3]

maybe I didn't say things clearly???? It sounds like you were rephraising what I said (er... tried to say). Nerfing down the DEXer's won't work well - Buffing the STR'ers could.

I like the idea of an area that requires a set STR to access that would offer a super STR Triton. Would of course have to be non-drop to keep me from taking my STR toon (and yes I have em Rocco ) to get an uber Kukri to give my DEX blender.

As for leaving it so STR/CON toons would have a shot at getting them, I would disagree. STR/CON builds typically have EDR in addition to DD levels for a DR through the roof and are fine as they are. I'd say at least a STR 25 would be required... perhaps even higher. Afterall, you can get a STR of 30 and CON of 21 for EDR by 40 if you play your cards right. Maybe an uber triton should require STR of 30