Strength Tweaks

[DM Clang_ns3]

My main question is that not if either one gets hit.....but when either type gets hit....who should be taking more damage?

That is an imbalance that needs addressed.

I agree you cant increase Str bases soaks/resist because DDs are almost impervious as it is. That means Dex based armors need to be SLIGHTLY nerfed.

The reason non-typical(not scimitar,scythe, etc.) weapons need bumped as well and maybe more is the same reason STR based chars need a boost. . .VARIETY!

With ONLY the changes mentioned recently, I would still see no reason to play STR based. A dexer would still take as little damage as a STR based, and only do slightly less dam but with the higher crit ranges and/or more hits with higher AB do just as much if not more damage.

It sounds more like people don't want to lose anything on their precious Dexers.


As far as the idea that the 'finese' fighter hittting a more accurate shot . . .
that IS the higher AB that most dexers have. It's like bench testing rifles;

A finese weapon would be like a .22 cal and a str weapon like a .357

When placed on the bench and strapped down to hit the target precisely the same way, the .357 does more damage. This example takes the "to hit" roll out of the equation.

[duodave_ns3]

the weird thing i see about str toons is they all use stuff like [censored] swords, which makes no sense. scimi i can see--it's got the crit range of a rapier. sythe has the +5 crit on a wm. most of the other str wpns are for show and tell. with the dmg pumping out of a triton, the dmg added from str doesn't matter. i think if you wanted to even it out, just add a 0 at the end of the dmg bonus, and keep the armor as it is. the str toons pump more dmg and take as much as they always have.

As for [censored] swords, there are several [censored] swords such as Yudumbastage and Killer that have some excellent benefits for small toons. Yudumbastage does almost as much damage as triton.

As for other weapons, I personally prefer crit multiplier to crit range. So on a str toon you'll find me using waraxe or battleaxe before I'll pick scimmy, and on a dexer you'll see me with a handaxe before I take rapier. And yes, I've tried rapier, sorry I find I'm more effective with the handaxe.

-dave

[Anonymous_ns3]

I disagree with your point on a plate wearer having a higher AC. That should never happen at all. A Dex'er should always have a higher AC.

I do agree with what some have pointed out that Plate Armor should indeed have better Soaks and maybe even better resits. That makes sense.


I didn't say that plate wearers have higher AC, I said they should have.
If soak will reflect plate being tougher than a robe or a leather hide, cool add more soak.
I'm more of a proponent of adding, rather than taking away from the game.

[DrakhanValane_ns3]

I promise DV I'm not a DorF hater. :P lol

It's Dwarf. And I hate them with a passion.

[MadBovine_ns3]

My ultimate solution to the debate:

Just add more damage to the non-finesse weapons. Up all the dice classes by one (Ex. d6 goes to d8) and on the really big ones, all the 2-handers, max out the dice, I.E. d12. As it stands, even among Str builds, there is no reason to use any of the 2-handed weapons aside from scythe.

Oh yeah, drop the soaks by 15 to 20 points on all robes, as was said they aren't nearly as "tough" as a half inch of steel/adamantium/mithril

And no immunities to pierce/bludge on robes! I could see them hampering slashing damage, but not piercing and certainly not bludgeoning..

[DM_ShadowKeeper_ns3]

My ultimate solution to the debate:

Just add more damage to the non-finesse weapons. Up all the dice classes by one (Ex. d6 goes to d8) and on the really big ones, all the 2-handers, max out the dice, I.E. d12. As it stands, even among Str builds, there is no reason to use any of the 2-handed weapons aside from scythe.

Oh yeah, drop the soaks by 15 to 20 points on all robes, as was said they aren't nearly as "tough" as a half inch of steel/adamantium/mithril

And no immunities to pierce/bludge on robes! I could see them hampering slashing damage, but not piercing and certainly not bludgeoning..

This may indeed be the best of all worlds. I like the idea of increasing the damage on one handed STR weapons. I love the idea of increasing the two haded weapons even a bit more. Dropping the soaks on Robes is a fine idea as well.

On two handed weapons maybe even add a deflection modifier of +10 on it to help offset the loss in shield for STR fighters a tad bit. I don't think that would break anything. Unless it's a undead shifter. I'm not sure about that as I don't play a shifter at all.

This would give a reason to play STR fighters again and I don't think it would terribly unbalance anything.

Great stuff.

Heck I might even roll up a DorF.

[disastro_ns3]

as i posted in another thread one way to go for triton/high end weapons is to give the extra damage dice the same die type as the base weapon.

so kukri would do +2d4 positive, +2d4 magic, etc. A two handed sword would do +2d12 positive, +2d12 magic, etc. this puts all the weapons in line with the natural balance that already existed in the game.

Exotic weapons would actually pay for themselves, as they tend to do almost two-handed damage in one hand ([censored] / dwarven waraxe). finally someone who ate the penalties and feats for a dual waraxe toon would have payoff, and choosing between a double bladed sword or double bladed axe would provide an interesting optimization problem.

[Forge_ns3]

Man... leave for the weekend and your lonely thread explodes....


Ok.. in the orignial post I alluded the "STR tweaks had been mentioned"... the tweak I am referring to has nothing to do with the neverending debate about plate,robes,AC,soak,tritons, and finesse.

Trhyne was closest...

I'm talking dev. crit here.


But, not your grandpa's dev. crit. The reqs for the feat would be the same, but the effect would be to increase your crit multiplier, ie - rapier's x2 becomes x3.. so forth and so on. And yes, it would stack with WM bonuses.. so, yes, you could have a scythemaster with a x6 modifier.

What does this do?

1. It takes away nothing from DEX builds. Doinking around with the triton weapons is gonna screw some folks. If you decrease all the finesse weapons, you are gonna screw those weirdos that wanna make a halfling barb STR build w/ a rapier.
2. It doesn't require the devs to plop more uber gear into the mod.
3. It makes a whole slew of builds interesting again... there will suddenly be a very interesting tradoff between the nice survivability of the dex builds and the raw damage output of the STR builds.

That is the STR tweak I would like to see and that is what I started this thread to discuss.

[DM Fire_ns3]

I have looked into the dev crit and unless I am missing something, that is hard coded. We can either turn it off or on based on the requirements to get it.

Maybe Pros or Flailer can look and see if anything is posible.

[DrakhanValane_ns3]

If it were possible to modify Dev Crit without using a hak, it would have been done a long time ago.

[DM ex Machina_ns3]

not possible, forge (i think), but--nevertheless--a really interesting idea.

[Forge_ns3]

I feared as much... I had heard various rumblings from various places that made me think it might be possible... oh well. : )

EDIT: I should probably mention that this tweak wasn't my idea.... but, I know the guy it originated with and I thought it was an interesting notion worth pursuing.

[Razarr69_ns3]

I was just wanting to put in a quick comment on the damage caused by a finesse attack versus a raw strength one. A STR attack may well cleave off your arm, but a finesse attack will slip through a chink in your armor, through your ribcage, and explode your heart . Is it just me, or did the finesse attack just do more damage? Of course the STR attack could also cleave your whole body in half as well! So hmmm...

Here is another of the endless tirade of suggestions.
Maybe we could tweak the str damage bonus. Kinda like how 2 handed weapons do 1.5 STR bonus. Perhaps we could increase the STR bonus for all. Since the weapons are all uber it would need to be a fairly big bump to make any noticeable difference. Maybe make all STR bonuses x3 or x4. Would that be enough. Yes I know this would up the damage dexers do as well since their STR is going to be modified to at least 18. Maybe the new STR modifier could only affect specific weapons.

[Rocco_ns3]

I promise DV I'm not a DorF hater. lol

It's Dwarf. And I hate them with a passion.

The only thing worse than a Dwarf is the Tim Conway reference to "Dorf". God I hate that.

[Rocco_ns3]

My ultimate solution to the debate:

Just add more damage to the non-finesse weapons. Up all the dice classes by one (Ex. d6 goes to d8) and on the really big ones, all the 2-handers, max out the dice, I.E. d12. As it stands, even among Str builds, there is no reason to use any of the 2-handed weapons aside from scythe.

Oh yeah, drop the soaks by 15 to 20 points on all robes, as was said they aren't nearly as "tough" as a half inch of steel/adamantium/mithril

And no immunities to pierce/bludge on robes! I could see them hampering slashing damage, but not piercing and certainly not bludgeoning..

This may indeed be the best of all worlds. I like the idea of increasing the damage on one handed STR weapons. I love the idea of increasing the two haded weapons even a bit more. Dropping the soaks on Robes is a fine idea as well.

On two handed weapons maybe even add a deflection modifier of +10 on it to help offset the loss in shield for STR fighters a tad bit. I don't think that would break anything. Unless it's a undead shifter. I'm not sure about that as I don't play a shifter at all.

I have suggested this to Fang once before, about adding a AC bonus to Two-handed weapons. However, figure roughly every character at higher levels has a +7-9 Deflection bonus (heck, most now start the game with +9) so to get the same benifit as an Ice Shield with a +9 deflection bonus you would have to put a +20 AC bonus on the two-handed weapon cause it counts as a deflection bonus. Then you are about the same on AC as other Shield STR toons.

Of course, if a higher immunty was part of the equation, you could get away with a lower AC. +9 for other gear and a +6 for an average Shield would still be about a +15.

Although, if they jacked two-handed triton damage through the roof, then the lack of AC becomes less important too

This would give a reason to play STR fighters again and I don't think it would terribly unbalance anything.

Great stuff.

Heck I might even roll up a DorF.

IT'S DWARF, AAARRGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

And I would LOVE to see you with a Dwarf