Neversummer 4 EE Forum

open up all the boats for incoming raiders.... add a boat for the dorfs...

I rarely visit the forums....but this is important.
I have been consistently playing the game and actively PvPing for a decade.
Pig and I have selected 4 things that would greatly improve PvP and contribute to more people playing the game.
All of the founding Fury Clan was informed and agree that these changes would promote PvP.

4 basic changes that would promote and ensure healthy PvP:
1. Turn on the boats near all relic cradle rooms (Turn on the boats near NC, SL, etc. A boat will need to be placed in the underground lake for dwarves). This ensures that all relic rooms are within 3-4 maps of a boat or a dragon for easy raiding...this will increase PvP.
2. Change the rule about 30 min to change raiders...make it like...5 min...that gives the defenders enough time to makes changes...but also eliminates long waits...this will increase PvP.
3. Remove the Epic relic defenders....they just cause issues between raiders and defenders...and 99% of the time...if a raider sees epics...they just reset the cradle map anyway.
4. Ban snide remarks, bitching, mean comments, etc....on shout....it decreases pvp.....Imagine...you're a newbie....you just got your ass kicked...(or worse...you just beat an old timer)....and you have to deal with bullcrap on the shout channel ...about how your build sucks...or you were lucky...or you cheated...or.....whatever...that shit kills PvP....people dont want to deal with the stress....so ban that stuff.

These changes will fundamentally change PvP....so it is more fun...it is quicker..without long wait times....and promotes building new toons....to kill ....that SOB....that killed you....yesterday.
Cheers,
-Mord (on behalf of the Fury Clan)

My thought on ferries would be to calculate the impact, mapwise/travelwise, both in & out of pvp.

Also where would sl & rk ferries connect? Will this create camps/bottlenecks that become unfair?

Also need to toss out the idea that not all cradle rooms are created equal. Here are some common considerations:

SL: raiders enter/exit from sewers (which come from orc caves or south road), house tunnel behind barracks, 3 house tunnels + main entrance in menzo.

MA: all the plains maps create a plethora of paths, which then narrow into one single path along bridge & through 2 more bridges in town.

NC: 2 entrances into city with a beltway around town connecting them. Without ferry, still a lot of map/path options ultimately narrowing to 3 main straightaways to beryn. Also a faction rift portal in relic room for escape and relog camping.

TC: One way into cradle, no door for meta gaming/awareness, tiny map with 2 sneakable corners (kinda). 3 entrances in/out of city each completely separate paths. Is there a faction rift somewhat close as well?

AO: ferry not even one map away from city. Currently a single exit route through one map, leading to 3 exit paths that converge back to each other a little, but offer 3 distinct routes out.

RK: 2 paths into city. Realistically, one path in from underdark is used 95% or more of the time,and that becomes a looong slow, loud/aware run, after like 6 maps, eventually leading to 3 or 4 distinct exits. Also has a faction only rift in relic room.

Not for or against the idea of ferries, just that it is a more complicated matter from the standpoint of "fair" raiding and defending.

Hi Bargeld,
Yea...we started considering these issues...but after much debating and consideration....we agreed that the bottom line is ...it takes too much time to get to some of the Cradle rooms.
to answer your question...SL has boats 2 maps from relic room...Same with NC...and AO .....turn them on is our vote.
for RK....the only spot I found that makes sense is the underground lake map....which is 3-4 maps from cradle.
All relic rooms need easy access my friend...it will promote pvp.
Getting the relic out...is the same as it always has been.
No one likes waiting ...and waiting for pvp... it sucks.
This ....along with the other 3 changes can make pvp close to fair...and fun.
Cheers,
-Mord

SL has a boat graphic but it doesn't currenrly have a ferryman.
Rk could have a boat, yes.

One of the questions (still unanswered) where do the boats go to & from?

One other consideration is the killing of the ferryman and or holding the dialogs on them so they cant be used by others. From a development standpoint, do you lose faction to that ferryman if you kill him, or all ferrymen (like dragons)? But then certain ferrymen are in safe areas, like FD. And then you would never be able to go to FD or Sunken, etc.

Again the point is that it's deeper than just adding generic travel points like a portal.

I commend the desired outcome, which is more pvp. But, between my points above, as well as the fact that I, personally, enjoy chasing, hunting, ambushing, anticipating, and outsmarting my opponents as well. If there was only 6 maps of travel from cradle to cradle for all relic warfare, it greatly changes the game. More pvp is not necessarily the outcome. If anything, I would bet people get frustrated by the meta game because now you have to expect people to re-raid in like 3 minutes, as opposed to 10 mins, which allows defense swapping and prepararion. I also predict people not preparing for battles as much and being more reckless, because (like raing AO) who cares if you die, when you can just keep trying in 2 mins as long as your pockets are deep enough.

The other pro-pvp things mentioned have never really been an issue.
People ask if it's ok to relog a different toon all the time, and I've only seen the request denied once, maaaybe twice. Ever.
Shout has the same rules all the time, and based on the dm(s) that may be present, they are enforced without a straightline rule, but it usually takes a bit more than just general whining for action to be taken. Personally (and you have played with/against me for years) I think that whining on shout literally builds character. It defines player personalities and I believe that the interpersonal reactions alone should be enough to help players conduct themselves appropriately. I have also seen MANY newer players learning pvp ettiquette due to whiney shouts. Calling out a new player for breaking ettiquette helps to teach them, in my opinion.

As long as the shouts don't get overly personal, profane, or become an ongoing general nuisance, then everyone should be fine. I've seen DMs just turn off shout, and I prefer that option before taking action against individuals (except profanity). It almost always takes 2 to cause an ongoing rukus on shout, and banning 2 active pvpers right then and there will most definitely stop any further pvp.

Similar to another comment I made in a different conversation, NS4 needs to be self sufficient, with REQUIRED DM interaction kept to a minimum. Banning is always a last option. Players need to learn how to conduct themselves as adults without a ban stick forcing them to play nice.

I think that I didn't explain it well.
Turning on the boats in Furys vision does not create "6 maps of travel from cradle to cradle for all relic warfare" It just allows for less waiting time...and more pvp...one still would not be allowed to get on a boat with a relic...one would still have to run it all the way home. I agree with you that "I, personally, enjoy chasing, hunting, ambushing, anticipating, and outsmarting my opponents as well"....absolutely.
However...(as an example) over the past year I have PvP'd almost every day. It occured (with very few exceptions) in the same 3 areas....defense and raiding of TC....defense and raiding of AO....and the maps in between. The TCNC people took the relics to the den...for more pvp....the AORK took the relics to AO...for more pvp...and it worked...each faction did this because they know its a long ass run to get to NC....and to RK...and because of that...PvP rarely took place in either of those areas.
Fury is suggesting that we open the boats...and see how it affects the PvP....different defense strategies...new defense strategies....new raiding strategies....to make the relic wars...a more even pvp battlefield....to try it out.

Second, I misspoke when I used the word "ban". I agree that teaching new players about fighting etiquette is fine....however if there was a rule against nastiness on shout, then when a few players who are consistently being nasty on shout (I think you know who I am talking about) .....it may curb the bad behavior....no DM necessary.
-Mord

There are already rules on shout etiquette in the commandments.

Right now, I would say that the biggest barrier for raiding/defending and pvp in general is that no one has 40s yet!

Let's get some 40s, get some guilds officially established, get some pvp going, then lets see how it goes.

There's a bunch of new players and even a completely new group of tagged toons aiming for a guild. New blood & new toon vaults may change the dynamics of pvp immensely. How bout we revisit when it's a bit more real and less hypothetical?